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That's what Microsoft wants you to believe. In reality C++ tooling is vastly better on any Unix, and it's 100% free in both senses of the word. Also, there's n

That's what Microsoft wants you to believe. In reality C++ tooling is vastly better on any Unix, and it's 100% free in both senses of the word. Also, there's no qualitative difference between C++ toolchains on macOS and Linux, since the same compilers are used on both.

pjmlp 10y ago
Yet another UNIX user that never used Borland C++, C++ Builder, Zortech C++ debuggers, Visual C++... > no qualitative difference between C++ toolchains on macOS and Linux, Where is Instruments, XCode, Cocoa, IO Kit for GNU/Linux?
- general_ai 10y ago
  Of these I used all but Zortech. None of them compare to GCC6. I've also used Microsoft C++ compiler fairly recently. It's not even close. I don't use Xcode when coding C++ on OS X, vim + YouCompleteMe beats the heck of any IDE I have ever used. I prefer Linux "perf" to Instruments, too. It's not an option on the Mac, but if it was, that's what I'd be using.
  - pjmlp 10y ago
    How do you do these tasks with GCC 6? - graphical debugging of parallel tasks and threads - displaying data structures graphically with code navigation - WYSIWYG UIs with tooling like Blend - GPU debugging - Code navigation across object files, shared libraries and source code - Incremental compilation and linking with intermediate representations stored in a database. - Out of the box representation for all STL data structures and user defined types Tooling is much more than just a plain old compiler.
    - general_ai 10y ago
      That's the first time I've seen a VS user praise MSBuild, which is utter garbage. On the unix side you won't hear much praise for GDB or LLDB, but for everything you've listed numerous tools exist. Eclipse in particular has superior code indexing/navigation capabilities. Both QT and GTK have GUI builders. NVidia provides a plugin to debug and profile GPU code. What Microsoft compiler doesn't provide in my experience is decent codegen.
      - pjmlp 10y ago
        > Eclipse in particular has superior code indexing/navigation capabilities. Not when compared with the enterprise and ultimate versions. Or with the changes done in VS 2015, improved in the upcoming VS 2017 for incremental building and database storage of symbols. > Both QT and GTK have GUI builders. Miles behind of what Blend + XAML allow for. > NVidia provides a plugin to debug and profile GPU code. How well does it work with Intel and AMD cards? > What Microsoft compiler doesn't provide in my experience is decent codegen. On Windows, among commercial compilers, only ICC generates better code.
- oselhn 10y ago
  I use Visual C++ 2013 at work and it is quite bad. It is just smarter text editor. There are only most basic refactoring features, even find all references is not reliable (it is text based search). You have to buy another extension to make it usable (Visual Assist or Resharper). Project files are a mess. There is vcxproj file to define build and vcxproj.filters file for directory structure view in VS (I do not understand a reason for this). vcxproj.filters is often broken by VS. It sometimes inserts duplicated lines for no reason if you add or remove some other file from project. Debugger is quite good but still I have some issues(you can't set hexadecimal format just for one variable, it is global option). Overall I have better experience with Eclipse CDT (more features) or Code::Blocks (almost same features but faster) than with VS without extensions. Resharper makes it good IDE but it cost additional money and also it is not fastest extension. There are reasons for bad code navigation and missing refactoring features: https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/vcblog/2015/09/25/rejuvenating-the-microsoft-cc-compiler/ https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/vcblog/2015/09/25/rejuvenat...
  - pjmlp 10y ago
    Not when using the enterprise or ultimate versions.
    - oselhn 10y ago
      I don't think so https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/html/pbpage.VisualStudio2013Compare https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/html/pbpage.Visua...
  - silent_hunter 10y ago
    "Eclipse CDT or Code::Blocks" - you should have put /s at the end of the sentence. And be careful with "it's just a smarter text editor" when around vi/emacs users.
  - stinos 10y ago
    There are only most basic refactoring features Ha I always thought there were actually none. even find all references is not reliable Yup that sucks. It's better in VS2015 Project files are a mess. Yeah it's xml but for the rest it just lists files and options, how is that much of a problem? There is vcxproj file to define build and vcxproj.filters file for directory structure view in VS (I do not understand a reason for this). Can be easily solved by ditching the filters file all together and enabling 'All Files' option in Solution Explorer. Unless you insist on having all files listed by extension, which is imo a useless complete mess for enything but small projects. you can't set hexadecimal format just for one variable You can, use '<variablename>, h' in the watch window
stinos 10y ago
In reality C++ tooling is vastly better on any Unix, and it's 100% free in both senses of the word. Depends on what you mean with tooling I guess. CLang on windows is fine these days, so is msys. So, with possibly some quirks, that unix tooling runs on windows as well so it cannot be vastly worse tooling if it's the same. Still, talking IDEs and visual debugging which you might or might not consider a part of tooling, unfortunately VS still runs circles around the free competition. So much that I'm betting teams are willing to give up some standard compliance in favour of using it.
- berkus 10y ago
  Well, they're not. It's a major pita when MSVC cannot understand a pefectly standard C++ construction. And Microsoft is well aware of that, they made jumps and leaps recently to bring their level of C++ compiler support to the actual standard level, finally you can say MSVC actually understands standard C++.

pjmlp 10y ago

Yet another UNIX user that never used Borland C++, C++ Builder, Zortech C++ debuggers, Visual C++... > no qualitative difference between C++ toolchains on macOS and Linux, Where is Instruments, XCode, Cocoa, IO Kit for GNU/Linux?

general_ai 10y ago
Of these I used all but Zortech. None of them compare to GCC6. I've also used Microsoft C++ compiler fairly recently. It's not even close. I don't use Xcode when coding C++ on OS X, vim + YouCompleteMe beats the heck of any IDE I have ever used. I prefer Linux "perf" to Instruments, too. It's not an option on the Mac, but if it was, that's what I'd be using.
- pjmlp 10y ago
  How do you do these tasks with GCC 6? - graphical debugging of parallel tasks and threads - displaying data structures graphically with code navigation - WYSIWYG UIs with tooling like Blend - GPU debugging - Code navigation across object files, shared libraries and source code - Incremental compilation and linking with intermediate representations stored in a database. - Out of the box representation for all STL data structures and user defined types Tooling is much more than just a plain old compiler.
  - general_ai 10y ago
    That's the first time I've seen a VS user praise MSBuild, which is utter garbage. On the unix side you won't hear much praise for GDB or LLDB, but for everything you've listed numerous tools exist. Eclipse in particular has superior code indexing/navigation capabilities. Both QT and GTK have GUI builders. NVidia provides a plugin to debug and profile GPU code. What Microsoft compiler doesn't provide in my experience is decent codegen.
    - pjmlp 10y ago
      > Eclipse in particular has superior code indexing/navigation capabilities. Not when compared with the enterprise and ultimate versions. Or with the changes done in VS 2015, improved in the upcoming VS 2017 for incremental building and database storage of symbols. > Both QT and GTK have GUI builders. Miles behind of what Blend + XAML allow for. > NVidia provides a plugin to debug and profile GPU code. How well does it work with Intel and AMD cards? > What Microsoft compiler doesn't provide in my experience is decent codegen. On Windows, among commercial compilers, only ICC generates better code.
oselhn 10y ago
I use Visual C++ 2013 at work and it is quite bad. It is just smarter text editor. There are only most basic refactoring features, even find all references is not reliable (it is text based search). You have to buy another extension to make it usable (Visual Assist or Resharper). Project files are a mess. There is vcxproj file to define build and vcxproj.filters file for directory structure view in VS (I do not understand a reason for this). vcxproj.filters is often broken by VS. It sometimes inserts duplicated lines for no reason if you add or remove some other file from project. Debugger is quite good but still I have some issues(you can't set hexadecimal format just for one variable, it is global option). Overall I have better experience with Eclipse CDT (more features) or Code::Blocks (almost same features but faster) than with VS without extensions. Resharper makes it good IDE but it cost additional money and also it is not fastest extension. There are reasons for bad code navigation and missing refactoring features: https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/vcblog/2015/09/25/rejuvenating-the-microsoft-cc-compiler/ https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/vcblog/2015/09/25/rejuvenat...
- pjmlp 10y ago
  Not when using the enterprise or ultimate versions.
  - oselhn 10y ago
    I don't think so https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/html/pbpage.VisualStudio2013Compare https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/html/pbpage.Visua...
- silent_hunter 10y ago
  "Eclipse CDT or Code::Blocks" - you should have put /s at the end of the sentence. And be careful with "it's just a smarter text editor" when around vi/emacs users.
- stinos 10y ago
  There are only most basic refactoring features Ha I always thought there were actually none. even find all references is not reliable Yup that sucks. It's better in VS2015 Project files are a mess. Yeah it's xml but for the rest it just lists files and options, how is that much of a problem? There is vcxproj file to define build and vcxproj.filters file for directory structure view in VS (I do not understand a reason for this). Can be easily solved by ditching the filters file all together and enabling 'All Files' option in Solution Explorer. Unless you insist on having all files listed by extension, which is imo a useless complete mess for enything but small projects. you can't set hexadecimal format just for one variable You can, use '<variablename>, h' in the watch window

stinos 10y ago

In reality C++ tooling is vastly better on any Unix, and it's 100% free in both senses of the word. Depends on what you mean with tooling I guess. CLang on windows is fine these days, so is msys. So, with possibly some quirks, that unix tooling runs on windows as well so it cannot be vastly worse tooling if it's the same. Still, talking IDEs and visual debugging which you might or might not consider a part of tooling, unfortunately VS still runs circles around the free competition. So much that I'm betting teams are willing to give up some standard compliance in favour of using it.

berkus 10y ago
Well, they're not. It's a major pita when MSVC cannot understand a pefectly standard C++ construction. And Microsoft is well aware of that, they made jumps and leaps recently to bring their level of C++ compiler support to the actual standard level, finally you can say MSVC actually understands standard C++.