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“A Modest Proposal” — the author's title is the strongest indication this is a parody, and not everyone will get the reference.

by alanh 16y ago

maw 16y ago
I've seen "modest proposals" that whose authors didn't know that they're supposed to be parodies. If my reading of Dickey's piece is on target, this is one of those cases where the author didn't know.
- tptacek 16y ago
  I'm guessing the former Bureau Chief for Paris, Cairo, and Central America for Newsweek and (before that) the Washington Post has heard of Swift before. Dickey's not the first journalist to make this point, which, stated concisely, is that nobody would accept a law like this if it applied universally, because it would mean they could spend a night in a city jail for forgetting their wallet. They're only OK with Arizona's law because they haven't thought it through.
- russell 16y ago
  Dickey most certainly did know. "A Modest Proposal" was in the title to alert those who might not recognize satire, that he was dead set against all that he appeared to support. OTOH perhaps American education has declined to the point than nobody reads Swift anymore.
thingie 16y ago
Interesting. I was reading it as an actual (and modest) proposal and, living in Europe, wasn't able to understand what's the deal. Carry you ID on you? Oh, sure, I've been doing that since I was 15 and never had a problem with it. Quite a strange issue (for me), really. I like these articles pointing out interesting differences that would otherwise never occur to me. Like there might be a country where such proposal actually parodies something. :-)
- tptacek 16y ago
  You can't be arrested in the US simply for not carrying ID. Unless you're brown-skinned and live in Arizona (hence the uproar). You can be arrested for refusing to identify yourself to a police officer, and you can certainly be arrested for driving without ID, but you aren't required to carry papers simply to walk down the street. We like it that way.
  - skorgu 16y ago
    To clarify, you can't be convicted in the US for simply not carrying ID. You can still be effectively arrested and detained for a while with little or no recourse in many places.
    - cscott 16y ago
      No doubt. Those who do not follow police officer instructions to produce identification, even in states without "stop and identify" statutes, will find themselves risking an obstruction charge. It may be dropped at the state/city attorney's discretion later, but it will create a very unpleasant period of time. Case in point: http://www.seattlepi.com/local/418746_video.html http://www.seattlepi.com/local/418746_video.html
    - tptacek 16y ago
      You can be detained for virtually any reason, but an arrest is more serious, and requires cause. You "can be" arrested, or beaten, or held incommunicado without an attorney; like being arrested simply for not carrying identification, those things are unlawful. You do have to identify yourself; presumably, if you're carrying ID and refuse to show it simply to be a dick, you're inviting trouble. But you'd have grounds for a complaint if you were detained and then arrested because you genuinely didn't have an ID card.
  - cscott 16y ago
    Unless the state has a "stop and identify" statute on the books, you cannot be arrested for refusing to identify yourself. 24 states have such a statute. My new home state, California, has none.
astrec 16y ago
I must admit I was was caught out. Now I'm a little sad that I've been so detuned by the political climate of the day that I didn't immediately identify the satire. In most places I've travelled, "Your papers please" is not so subtle code for "bribe me before I impose some arbitrary penalty". Except when it isn't, in which case to suggest such an accommodation results, at minimum, in a good going over and the imposition of some arbitrary penalty. Thankfully I only fly over Arizona so I'll never have to decide.
nfnaaron 16y ago
I almost never read Modest Proposals, Open Letters or Dirty Little Secrets anymore. The use of those phrases in the title tells me that the body probably won't have much original thought either. Can we have some new cliches? These things are so last year.

“A Modest Proposal” — the author's title is the strongest indication this is a parody, and not everyone will get the reference.

by alanh 16y ago

“A Modest Proposal” — the author's title is the strongest indication this is a parody, and not everyone will get the reference.

maw 16y ago

I've seen "modest proposals" that whose authors didn't know that they're supposed to be parodies. If my reading of Dickey's piece is on target, this is one of those cases where the author didn't know.

tptacek 16y ago
I'm guessing the former Bureau Chief for Paris, Cairo, and Central America for Newsweek and (before that) the Washington Post has heard of Swift before. Dickey's not the first journalist to make this point, which, stated concisely, is that nobody would accept a law like this if it applied universally, because it would mean they could spend a night in a city jail for forgetting their wallet. They're only OK with Arizona's law because they haven't thought it through.
russell 16y ago
Dickey most certainly did know. "A Modest Proposal" was in the title to alert those who might not recognize satire, that he was dead set against all that he appeared to support. OTOH perhaps American education has declined to the point than nobody reads Swift anymore.

thingie 16y ago

Interesting. I was reading it as an actual (and modest) proposal and, living in Europe, wasn't able to understand what's the deal. Carry you ID on you? Oh, sure, I've been doing that since I was 15 and never had a problem with it. Quite a strange issue (for me), really. I like these articles pointing out interesting differences that would otherwise never occur to me. Like there might be a country where such proposal actually parodies something. :-)

tptacek 16y ago
You can't be arrested in the US simply for not carrying ID. Unless you're brown-skinned and live in Arizona (hence the uproar). You can be arrested for refusing to identify yourself to a police officer, and you can certainly be arrested for driving without ID, but you aren't required to carry papers simply to walk down the street. We like it that way.
- skorgu 16y ago
  To clarify, you can't be convicted in the US for simply not carrying ID. You can still be effectively arrested and detained for a while with little or no recourse in many places.
  - cscott 16y ago
    No doubt. Those who do not follow police officer instructions to produce identification, even in states without "stop and identify" statutes, will find themselves risking an obstruction charge. It may be dropped at the state/city attorney's discretion later, but it will create a very unpleasant period of time. Case in point: http://www.seattlepi.com/local/418746_video.html http://www.seattlepi.com/local/418746_video.html
  - tptacek 16y ago
    You can be detained for virtually any reason, but an arrest is more serious, and requires cause. You "can be" arrested, or beaten, or held incommunicado without an attorney; like being arrested simply for not carrying identification, those things are unlawful. You do have to identify yourself; presumably, if you're carrying ID and refuse to show it simply to be a dick, you're inviting trouble. But you'd have grounds for a complaint if you were detained and then arrested because you genuinely didn't have an ID card.
- cscott 16y ago
  Unless the state has a "stop and identify" statute on the books, you cannot be arrested for refusing to identify yourself. 24 states have such a statute. My new home state, California, has none.

astrec 16y ago

I must admit I was was caught out. Now I'm a little sad that I've been so detuned by the political climate of the day that I didn't immediately identify the satire. In most places I've travelled, "Your papers please" is not so subtle code for "bribe me before I impose some arbitrary penalty". Except when it isn't, in which case to suggest such an accommodation results, at minimum, in a good going over and the imposition of some arbitrary penalty. Thankfully I only fly over Arizona so I'll never have to decide.

nfnaaron 16y ago

I almost never read Modest Proposals, Open Letters or Dirty Little Secrets anymore. The use of those phrases in the title tells me that the body probably won't have much original thought either. Can we have some new cliches? These things are so last year.