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Any hard Engineering branch, Mathematics, and some of the more rigorous Biology stuff will do as well. I honestly do not understand why there appears to be so

by iaw 10y ago

Any hard Engineering branch, Mathematics, and some of the more rigorous Biology stuff will do as well. I honestly do not understand why there appears to be so much desire to get into Data Science when becoming a Programmer is equally lucrative and substantially easier to bootstrap into. Edit: Seriously, programmers make as much if not more than Data Scientists for what ends up being substantially less stressful work (all things being equal). I suspect if the people pursuing DS actually ended up doing the work and living with the responsibilities they'll regret their time investments.

autokad 10y ago
there is no 'programmer' role in the c-suite, but there are chief data scientists. data scientists have the ear of top management, and have direct interaction where that is rarely true with programmers, which leads to... there isn't a silicon ceiling on a ds pay like there is with programmers, and I disagree they are equally lucrative. I have never seen ds roles that were not substantially paid more than programmers; although with the explosion of the ds role, there are plenty of sub-par ds positions out there. (according to glass door, the average programmer makes 70k, the average ds makes 128 in san francisco). That disparity even holds for large tech like facebook. as far as 'less stress', I believe that is subjective. some people would like to program, others more ds stuff, and often ds and programmers get to do a little of both.
- acconrad 10y ago
  > there is no 'programmer' role in the c-suite CTO?
- iaw 10y ago
  > but there are chief data scientists. data scientists have the ear of top management Have you worked in or near a c-suite before? Because both of those statements don't align with the reality that I've observed.
- dsacco 10y ago
  >there is no 'programmer' role in the c-suite, but there are chief data scientists. data scientists have the ear of top management, and have direct interaction where that is rarely true with programmers, which leads to... After working closely with dozens of tech companies, I have to say I've never seen a single "Chief Data Scientist." I also can't say I've even heard of a single company that has one (I'm sure some exist though). I have seen a Chief Technology Officer in virtually every tech company, which is essentially "programmer role in the c-suite" for the purposes of this discussion. Furthermore, in the companies I've worked with that had in-house data scientists, they always treated them less well than the software engineers developing products. I guess what I'm trying to say is that your statements don't match my experience, or the experience of anyone I personally know in this industry, and I'd be interested to see where your experience is coming from.
  - battlebot 10y ago
    I've never seen a CTO write any code. That's not their job.
    - dsacco 10y ago
      I anticipated a comment like this one, which is why I explicitly said "for the purposes of this discussion." You're right, a CTO doesn't usually write software, a CTO manages programmers who write software (or VPs managing teams of programmers, etc). But a CTO generally comes from a coding background, and how much data science do you think a "chief data scientist" is really doing, as opposed to managing other data scientists? People in the C-Suite typically don't really do anything other than manage people managing others in the same background they came from. I think the spirit of my point still stands, pedantry aside. There clearly exists a commonly used and recognized c-suite role for programmers, whether they use their programming ability hands on or in managing others. It's not at all clear to me that there is a commonly used nor well recognized c-suite role for data scientists that would be distinct from CTO. As a category of employee and work division, data scientists have not yet become distinct enough from cross-polinated disciplines to have that sort of representation.
- battlebot 10y ago
  Okay, so I'm equipped, but how do I find those jobs? By thew way, I'm making more than the 128 as a developer already, and not in expensive Cali, so is it even worth it? I think any time you're talking with c-suite type people, the stress level is pretty high. That's been my experience anyways.
- didibus 10y ago
  When did you last look at Glassdoor? The avg entry level software engineer makes 110k in San fran, and 95k in the US as a whole. It's 128k in San fran for a data scientist and 113k in the US as a whole. I'd suspect the Data Science entries are skewed upwards, as most of them are employed by big companies, while software engineering has a larger small to medium sized employment prospect which probably bring down the average in comparison, but brings more job opportunity. I think you searched for programmer on glass door. Programmers don't even need a degree, just a boot camp and you're good to go. I'm not sure data science has an equivalent, maybe business analyst? That averages 69k in San Fran. Also, if you look for Machine Learning Engineers, a specialty of Software Engineering, they make more then Data Scientist, with a 140k avg in San Fran and 122k national.
eanzenberg 10y ago
For me anyways, data science seemed like more interesting work (building predictive models, investigating trends and telling stories through analytics, working on deep learning) than pure programming. I dunno which is easier to get into with a hard science background, but it took me about 1 yr of being an analyst to get a good ds job.
- anotheryou 10y ago
  so do you have a "masters in CS or Statistics"?
  - eanzenberg 10y ago
    No, phd in physics
    - anotheryou 10y ago
      ok, but still some science phd. thanks!
- iaw 10y ago
  > data science seemed like more interesting work That is the only good answer to why one would want to be a DS, if you don't find the work interesting you'll never succeed.

by iaw 10y ago

autokad 10y ago

there is no 'programmer' role in the c-suite, but there are chief data scientists. data scientists have the ear of top management, and have direct interaction where that is rarely true with programmers, which leads to... there isn't a silicon ceiling on a ds pay like there is with programmers, and I disagree they are equally lucrative. I have never seen ds roles that were not substantially paid more than programmers; although with the explosion of the ds role, there are plenty of sub-par ds positions out there. (according to glass door, the average programmer makes 70k, the average ds makes 128 in san francisco). That disparity even holds for large tech like facebook. as far as 'less stress', I believe that is subjective. some people would like to program, others more ds stuff, and often ds and programmers get to do a little of both.

acconrad 10y ago
> there is no 'programmer' role in the c-suite CTO?
iaw 10y ago
> but there are chief data scientists. data scientists have the ear of top management Have you worked in or near a c-suite before? Because both of those statements don't align with the reality that I've observed.
dsacco 10y ago
>there is no 'programmer' role in the c-suite, but there are chief data scientists. data scientists have the ear of top management, and have direct interaction where that is rarely true with programmers, which leads to... After working closely with dozens of tech companies, I have to say I've never seen a single "Chief Data Scientist." I also can't say I've even heard of a single company that has one (I'm sure some exist though). I have seen a Chief Technology Officer in virtually every tech company, which is essentially "programmer role in the c-suite" for the purposes of this discussion. Furthermore, in the companies I've worked with that had in-house data scientists, they always treated them less well than the software engineers developing products. I guess what I'm trying to say is that your statements don't match my experience, or the experience of anyone I personally know in this industry, and I'd be interested to see where your experience is coming from.
- battlebot 10y ago
  I've never seen a CTO write any code. That's not their job.
  - dsacco 10y ago
    I anticipated a comment like this one, which is why I explicitly said "for the purposes of this discussion." You're right, a CTO doesn't usually write software, a CTO manages programmers who write software (or VPs managing teams of programmers, etc). But a CTO generally comes from a coding background, and how much data science do you think a "chief data scientist" is really doing, as opposed to managing other data scientists? People in the C-Suite typically don't really do anything other than manage people managing others in the same background they came from. I think the spirit of my point still stands, pedantry aside. There clearly exists a commonly used and recognized c-suite role for programmers, whether they use their programming ability hands on or in managing others. It's not at all clear to me that there is a commonly used nor well recognized c-suite role for data scientists that would be distinct from CTO. As a category of employee and work division, data scientists have not yet become distinct enough from cross-polinated disciplines to have that sort of representation.
battlebot 10y ago
Okay, so I'm equipped, but how do I find those jobs? By thew way, I'm making more than the 128 as a developer already, and not in expensive Cali, so is it even worth it? I think any time you're talking with c-suite type people, the stress level is pretty high. That's been my experience anyways.
didibus 10y ago
When did you last look at Glassdoor? The avg entry level software engineer makes 110k in San fran, and 95k in the US as a whole. It's 128k in San fran for a data scientist and 113k in the US as a whole. I'd suspect the Data Science entries are skewed upwards, as most of them are employed by big companies, while software engineering has a larger small to medium sized employment prospect which probably bring down the average in comparison, but brings more job opportunity. I think you searched for programmer on glass door. Programmers don't even need a degree, just a boot camp and you're good to go. I'm not sure data science has an equivalent, maybe business analyst? That averages 69k in San Fran. Also, if you look for Machine Learning Engineers, a specialty of Software Engineering, they make more then Data Scientist, with a 140k avg in San Fran and 122k national.

eanzenberg 10y ago

For me anyways, data science seemed like more interesting work (building predictive models, investigating trends and telling stories through analytics, working on deep learning) than pure programming. I dunno which is easier to get into with a hard science background, but it took me about 1 yr of being an analyst to get a good ds job.

anotheryou 10y ago
so do you have a "masters in CS or Statistics"?
- eanzenberg 10y ago
  No, phd in physics
  - anotheryou 10y ago
    ok, but still some science phd. thanks!
iaw 10y ago
> data science seemed like more interesting work That is the only good answer to why one would want to be a DS, if you don't find the work interesting you'll never succeed.