4 ms·

I think the top-10 universities do it right and the rest don't. (This is a bit of an exaggeration but you most likely know what I mean). Most of my classmates

I think the top-10 universities do it right and the rest don't. (This is a bit of an exaggeration but you most likely know what I mean). Most of my classmates don't usually "learn" a language. They do an assignment by copying, hammering at the computer, or just asking for help. The basis of how university is set up is antithetical to the learning and exploration of new programming languages. This is based on one simple thing that most universities do and is very easy to fix. Don't mandate a programming language for you assignments If this one thing was done, we'd probably instantly see a much higher failure rate and a much hire quality of turnout. If early on in the curriculum students got a tour of every one of the big name languages and got to just choose the best tool for the job for the rest of their time at university there'd be a much closer approximation to how things (at least for me) work. If one of your projects is something like "scrape a webpage for X data" you wouldn't want to write that in a bash script (which I've been made to do [0]) I'd want to do that in Python with BS4. Or if your project is to write a parallel dot product function you wouldn't want to write that in C (which I've been made to do [1]). I'd want to write that in Julia. Even in my class that I took for exploring programming languages we were forced to use C++. We were writing an interpreter using C++ which I'd rather have done in some Lisp-like languages. Unfortunatly I've not been able to make the design decition to play with other language (in school) to see how they will better impact the development of these applications. I've not had to prototype stuff to see what language it will work best in (in school). These are decitions made for me. I've found that this isn't how things work, at least for me, and I'm the one who is told "Do X" and I pick a way to do it. Whether it's by setting up a spreadsheet it a macro in it that generates the data or writing some real code. I get to choose the most elegant solution and I suffer the consequences then I didn't choose the most elegant solution since I have to my software when it breaks 2 years down the line. [0] - https://web.njit.edu/~sohna/cs288/hw3.html https://web.njit.edu/~sohna/cs288/hw3.html [1] - https://web.njit.edu/~sohna/cs288/hw10.html https://web.njit.edu/~sohna/cs288/hw10.html

no_wizard 10y ago
To be fair, and I don't have your context on this, but looking at your link of the assignment for [0] it appears to me that this is more of an exercise in getting people comfortable with more advanced bash features, specifically looks like it relies fairly heavy on regex? I agree that BS4 is a better tool for this job, certainly, but there is perhaps a point in what is going on here too. As far as the second one goes, I bet that has more to do with the professors particular familiarity with C than it does an understanding of what the best tool of the job for that is. I'll cede that point :)
CJefferson 10y ago
There are three problems with "Don't mandate a programming language" -- I'm a lecturer and I've done it for advanced practicals in later years. * Students expect to be able to get help when they have problems. There is a good chance no member of staff knows Julia / Moonscript / ... * Some languages make tasks trivial -- while this is nice when you are in the real world, if I want to test student's ability to create something I don't want some students missing most of the work. How do I then mark it? * Similarly, if the question was "implement a malloc-like memory manager", well you really have to do that in C,C++,Objective-C, maybe Rust, but it makes less sense in python. Also, getting a "quick tour" of (say) C++ isn't really useful, students who try to pick it up by just googling are likely to write terrible code. Learning a language properly takes work.
- gravypod 10y ago
  > Students expect to be able to get help when they have problems. There is a good chance no member of staff knows Julia / Moonscript / ... For this I have two answers. Past the first year people shouldn't be getting help with "my code won't compile". They should be able to develop the skills needed to search that on google and find SOF links. The second answer is a question: Why don't members of staff know "Julia / Moonscript / ..." and if they don't why can't they logically reason about what's going on in the language without having used it? I don't know Go but when people have asked me to look at some Go code to see there is a bug I can still reason about what's happening. Isn't that what this article is about? All languages are just mix-matches of common idioms with new ways of expressing them. If the best of the best, those who are teaching the future generations of computer scientists, can't do this it would seems strange to me. > Some languages make tasks trivial -- while this is nice when you are in the real world, if I want to test student's ability to create something I don't want some students missing most of the work. How do I then mark it? If the student understands how to use the abstraction then they have likely learned something far more valuable. If you're assigning labs that consist of basic idioms that can be whisked away by common library functions then you might consider changing your curriculum to focus more on solving problems rather then codifying solutions. > Similarly, if the question was "implement a malloc-like memory manager", well you really have to do that in C,C++,Objective-C, maybe Rust, but it makes less sense in python. I see no reason why you'd have to write that in C/C++/Objective-C/Rust. If you're going after the idea of writing a working memory manager, and not write me a kernel that has a memory manager, then Python would work great for it. Here is an example: class Allocation: def __init__(self, start, size): self.start = start self.size = size @property def end(): return self.start + self.size + 1 class FirstFit: def __init__(self, total_memory): self.allocations = [] self.total_memory = total_memory def alloc(self, size): if not self.allocations: allocation = Allocation(0, size) else: allocation = None for i in range(len(self.allocations)): current = self.allocations[i] if i + 1 < len(self.allocations): # Check to see if we can fit inbetween this current allocation and the next if not self.allocations[i + 1] - current.end >= size: continue else: # Check to see if we can fit inbetween this end allocation and the end of memory if not self.total_memory - current.end >= size: continue # We can so allocate allocation = Allocation(current.end, size) if not allocation: # We can't so return NULL return None self.allocations.push(allocation) # Store this allocation in our memory allocation table return allocation[0] def free(self, start): for i in self.allocations: if self.allocations[i].start == start: # Find out pointer self.allocations = self.allocations[:i] + self.allocations[i + 1:] # Slice it out return True # We made it! return False # We couldn't find this! PANIC! This is crappy code but it can be done very eligently and I think this gets across the theory better then doing this in C. In this you can also experiment is far more complex datastructures easily. (What if I think of memroy as a Tree and divide the value of my node by 2 every time it's size is too big?) > Also, getting a "quick tour" of (say) C++ isn't really useful, students who try to pick it up by just googling are likely to write terrible code. Learning a language properly takes work. I'd say that's just because of the poor design of modern C++. You can do a quick tour of python and easily get basics, of C and easily get the basiscs, of Java and get the basics, of Common Lisp and get the basics. You don't need to master a language to see where it is applicable.
jghn 10y ago
That was me when I was in college. At the time my school was in the mid-teens for CS rankings although it is worse now. While I was there I worked heavily with C but also worked with C++, Java, List, MIPS RISC assembly, ML, Prolog, Ada, Fortran, Perl, Eiffel and a few others. For all of the languages that were supposed to be showing me a different paradigm in retrospect I didn't learn what I was supposed to. Years later when I had both enough experience to appreciate these things as well as interest in programming languages I did start to grok all of this but it certainly wasn't due to my education.
userbinator 10y ago
Don't mandate a programming language for you assignments I'd do them all in highly optimised x86 Asm, just because I can. ;-) Not all students start at the same level; making the choice of language a free-for-all is just going to stretch that disparity even more. The ones at the top will naturally find ways to entertain themselves more, and the ones at the bottom will have no less idea of how to do things than copy-pasting code they found somewhere else (if the language doesn't matter, it makes that even easier...) We were writing an interpreter using C++ which I'd rather have done in some Lisp-like languages. On the other hand, I believe that doing something in an "unconventional" language for it is one way of improving your skills since you have to then apply true creativity and knowledge instead of just following an existing solution. Using a language which makes the task easy or even trivial doesn't really benefit the learning process.
- gravypod 10y ago
  > I'd do them all in highly optimised x86 Asm, just because I can. ;-) I'd love to see someone do this because I'd say it'll be harder to do assignments I'd give out in x86 assembly then probably i686 or even ARM. Most people would likely do everything in the language they want to learn or will need in industry. If you're just messing around then write it all in some obscure architecture like AP-101 or PDP-8 or even 4004. Maybe I just love the classics. > Not all students start at the same level; making the choice of language a free-for-all is just going to stretch that disparity even more That's why I said they should first be introduced to languages. That should be the first thing, day one, and continue until they get a basic idea of all the common features in programming languages. > On the other hand, I believe that doing something in an "unconventional" language for it is one way of improving your skills since you have to then apply true creativity and knowledge instead of just following an existing solution It may be fun but I wouldn't want to do it in production or on my grade.

no_wizard 10y ago

To be fair, and I don't have your context on this, but looking at your link of the assignment for [0] it appears to me that this is more of an exercise in getting people comfortable with more advanced bash features, specifically looks like it relies fairly heavy on regex? I agree that BS4 is a better tool for this job, certainly, but there is perhaps a point in what is going on here too. As far as the second one goes, I bet that has more to do with the professors particular familiarity with C than it does an understanding of what the best tool of the job for that is. I'll cede that point :)

CJefferson 10y ago

There are three problems with "Don't mandate a programming language" -- I'm a lecturer and I've done it for advanced practicals in later years. * Students expect to be able to get help when they have problems. There is a good chance no member of staff knows Julia / Moonscript / ... * Some languages make tasks trivial -- while this is nice when you are in the real world, if I want to test student's ability to create something I don't want some students missing most of the work. How do I then mark it? * Similarly, if the question was "implement a malloc-like memory manager", well you really have to do that in C,C++,Objective-C, maybe Rust, but it makes less sense in python. Also, getting a "quick tour" of (say) C++ isn't really useful, students who try to pick it up by just googling are likely to write terrible code. Learning a language properly takes work.

gravypod 10y ago
> Students expect to be able to get help when they have problems. There is a good chance no member of staff knows Julia / Moonscript / ... For this I have two answers. Past the first year people shouldn't be getting help with "my code won't compile". They should be able to develop the skills needed to search that on google and find SOF links. The second answer is a question: Why don't members of staff know "Julia / Moonscript / ..." and if they don't why can't they logically reason about what's going on in the language without having used it? I don't know Go but when people have asked me to look at some Go code to see there is a bug I can still reason about what's happening. Isn't that what this article is about? All languages are just mix-matches of common idioms with new ways of expressing them. If the best of the best, those who are teaching the future generations of computer scientists, can't do this it would seems strange to me. > Some languages make tasks trivial -- while this is nice when you are in the real world, if I want to test student's ability to create something I don't want some students missing most of the work. How do I then mark it? If the student understands how to use the abstraction then they have likely learned something far more valuable. If you're assigning labs that consist of basic idioms that can be whisked away by common library functions then you might consider changing your curriculum to focus more on solving problems rather then codifying solutions. > Similarly, if the question was "implement a malloc-like memory manager", well you really have to do that in C,C++,Objective-C, maybe Rust, but it makes less sense in python. I see no reason why you'd have to write that in C/C++/Objective-C/Rust. If you're going after the idea of writing a working memory manager, and not write me a kernel that has a memory manager, then Python would work great for it. Here is an example: class Allocation: def __init__(self, start, size): self.start = start self.size = size @property def end(): return self.start + self.size + 1 class FirstFit: def __init__(self, total_memory): self.allocations = [] self.total_memory = total_memory def alloc(self, size): if not self.allocations: allocation = Allocation(0, size) else: allocation = None for i in range(len(self.allocations)): current = self.allocations[i] if i + 1 < len(self.allocations): # Check to see if we can fit inbetween this current allocation and the next if not self.allocations[i + 1] - current.end >= size: continue else: # Check to see if we can fit inbetween this end allocation and the end of memory if not self.total_memory - current.end >= size: continue # We can so allocate allocation = Allocation(current.end, size) if not allocation: # We can't so return NULL return None self.allocations.push(allocation) # Store this allocation in our memory allocation table return allocation[0] def free(self, start): for i in self.allocations: if self.allocations[i].start == start: # Find out pointer self.allocations = self.allocations[:i] + self.allocations[i + 1:] # Slice it out return True # We made it! return False # We couldn't find this! PANIC! This is crappy code but it can be done very eligently and I think this gets across the theory better then doing this in C. In this you can also experiment is far more complex datastructures easily. (What if I think of memroy as a Tree and divide the value of my node by 2 every time it's size is too big?) > Also, getting a "quick tour" of (say) C++ isn't really useful, students who try to pick it up by just googling are likely to write terrible code. Learning a language properly takes work. I'd say that's just because of the poor design of modern C++. You can do a quick tour of python and easily get basics, of C and easily get the basiscs, of Java and get the basics, of Common Lisp and get the basics. You don't need to master a language to see where it is applicable.

jghn 10y ago

That was me when I was in college. At the time my school was in the mid-teens for CS rankings although it is worse now. While I was there I worked heavily with C but also worked with C++, Java, List, MIPS RISC assembly, ML, Prolog, Ada, Fortran, Perl, Eiffel and a few others. For all of the languages that were supposed to be showing me a different paradigm in retrospect I didn't learn what I was supposed to. Years later when I had both enough experience to appreciate these things as well as interest in programming languages I did start to grok all of this but it certainly wasn't due to my education.

userbinator 10y ago

Don't mandate a programming language for you assignments I'd do them all in highly optimised x86 Asm, just because I can. ;-) Not all students start at the same level; making the choice of language a free-for-all is just going to stretch that disparity even more. The ones at the top will naturally find ways to entertain themselves more, and the ones at the bottom will have no less idea of how to do things than copy-pasting code they found somewhere else (if the language doesn't matter, it makes that even easier...) We were writing an interpreter using C++ which I'd rather have done in some Lisp-like languages. On the other hand, I believe that doing something in an "unconventional" language for it is one way of improving your skills since you have to then apply true creativity and knowledge instead of just following an existing solution. Using a language which makes the task easy or even trivial doesn't really benefit the learning process.

gravypod 10y ago
> I'd do them all in highly optimised x86 Asm, just because I can. ;-) I'd love to see someone do this because I'd say it'll be harder to do assignments I'd give out in x86 assembly then probably i686 or even ARM. Most people would likely do everything in the language they want to learn or will need in industry. If you're just messing around then write it all in some obscure architecture like AP-101 or PDP-8 or even 4004. Maybe I just love the classics. > Not all students start at the same level; making the choice of language a free-for-all is just going to stretch that disparity even more That's why I said they should first be introduced to languages. That should be the first thing, day one, and continue until they get a basic idea of all the common features in programming languages. > On the other hand, I believe that doing something in an "unconventional" language for it is one way of improving your skills since you have to then apply true creativity and knowledge instead of just following an existing solution It may be fun but I wouldn't want to do it in production or on my grade.