7 ms·

I work in renewables, and I encourage this community to not to ridicule people in Wyoming for their very clear majority choice. In their point of view, they are

by diafygi 10y ago

I work in renewables, and I encourage this community to not to ridicule people in Wyoming for their very clear majority choice. In their point of view, they are making the best choice for their interests, so calling them stupid only deepens their resolve. If you want renewables in Wyoming, there are four options (in order from most effective to least): (a) Move to Wyoming and outvote the existing population (it's not crowded, so it wouldn't take much). (b) Donate money and time on marketing, education, and advocacy campaigns to try and convince people in Wyoming to your point of view (somewhat difficult to do as an outsider, but not impossible). (c) Boycott fossil fuels from Wyoming (very difficult since they self consume a lot). (d) Wait for the existing generation to die and hope the next generation makes decisions in your favor. Currently, it sounds like HN has settled on option (d), but if your really want change, (a) and (b) are the things that work the best.

whyileft 10y ago
Also, a bit of a bikeshed since energy usage in Wyoming isn't all that significant. That said, the use of the all too common dismissive comment stating that if you are not physically doing something about it then you are part of the problem is caveman thinking. Actively fighting and protesting can do more harm than good. Freedom of speech is sometimes more about combined civil public discourse as opposed to aggressive and manipulative tactics of seizing power and pushing propaganda as you have suggested.
pjc50 10y ago
Is this actually a majority choice, or is this just something the state government has decided to do?
- brianwawok 10y ago
  I wouldn't be surprised if it were the majority voice. If my career was coal and my entire life was coal, I would care a lot more about my life than the environment in 100 years. I think the rational thing to do in fact would be what they just did. Fight renewable and encourage coal. This is not to say that very locally rational choices can not be horrible on the global scale. Which is why I think a strong federal /global team effort is needed to make smart choices for the planet. The federal level could likely shut down this kind of law. I suspect Obama would have, but that Trump would not (hence the timing of the bill).
- philipkglass 10y ago
  It's a fight between Wyoming counties that get revenue/jobs more from coal mining and/or combustion and those that are less coal-dependent. Wind is newer and smaller so coal has the more powerful voice at the whole-state level. http://www.wyomingbusinessreport.com/newsletter_am/proposed-wind-tax-threatens-wind-energy-project-again/article_1aa1438a-df1d-11e6-9c33-1ffe3d59d0e3.html http://www.wyomingbusinessreport.com/newsletter_am/proposed-... House Bill 0127, sponsored by Reps. Scott Clem, R-Gillette, and Michael Madden, R-Buffalo, as well as Sen. Cale Case, R-Lander, states that in addition to the current $1 tax per megawatt hour on wind energy, there will be a tax of $4 on each megawatt hour. The revenue collected from that $4 hike would go directly into the state general fund, while the original and current single dollar rate would remain in its current 60/40 split with the state. Wyoming is the only state in the nation that taxes wind. “Changing the rules this late in the planning and permitting process seems like retribution,” Carbon County Commissioner Lindy Glode said at a meeting of the Carbon County Council of Governments, where discussion of the bill was on the agenda. Note that this is a separate but similar-in-spirit bill to the proposed $10/MWh tax on wind and solar. The county commissioner from a wind-friendly county is naturally angry that the state is trying to quadruple the wind tax and ensure that none of the increase goes to counties where the wind projects are located. The game is pretty transparent: coal's defenders are trying to ensure that counties with less coal-centered business don't "defect" to hosting renewable projects that could decrease the market demand for coal-fired electricity. Heaping on taxes and not permitting host-counties to get any of that extra tax revenue is how they're trying to do it.
chc 10y ago
People have already tried B. I seriously doubt there are a lot of people in Wyoming who sincerely don't know why renewables exist.
the8472 10y ago
> (a) Move to Wyoming and outvote the existing population Pollution and global warming are not a local effects. Therefore it should not be solely their decision. It should be regulated at a national or international level instead since it affects everyone. And well, obama tried but it didn't last. So we should escalate: (e) The international community takes action and imposes trade sanctions on wyoming or america. And if that fails resorts to an invasion.
- cloakandswagger 10y ago
  >And if that fails resorts to an invasion It always astonishes me when statists are so clear about their violent propensities.
  - istjohn 10y ago
    Destroying the earth is violence.
    - cloakandswagger 10y ago
      Let me see if I understand: Industries are destroying the environment, which supports human life, and you want to stop this presumably because human life has some intrinsic value. Your answer to this is to use the force of the state to destroy those industries, and if they resist you will literally kill the people opposing you. Do those lives have less value than others? Or is this a twisted greater good type of thing, where you think climate change is happening so quickly that we should jump to dropping bombs to stop it? (hint: it's not)
      - JoeAltmaier 10y ago
        Really? You've not been paying attention then. Further the risk exists that we cross a tipping point before we even know it. There are sensible arguments for stopping polluting industry now, by any means necessary. Glib rationalization isn't a counter-argument. Science would be, if we had good enough models to know.
int_19h 10y ago
Even if something is a majority choice, that doesn't automatically mean that it isn't silly. And silly choices absolutely deserve ridicule. Have you ever heard the phrase "One million lemmings can't be wrong"?
lancewiggs 10y ago
(e) Wait for Wyoming to lose their coal industry as renewables from nearby states undercut their export of electricity market. After a while this law acts like a tariff, and local people will simply pay higher prices to support an inefficient industry. This might take longer than it should, as there is no carbon tax, but it will happen. It's already cheaper to build renewable plants now, and with a marginal cost, once built, of $0, the renewables will win in the coming price war. https://understandsolar.com/solar-energy-vs-coal/ https://understandsolar.com/solar-energy-vs-coal/
felipemnoa 10y ago
>>I work in renewables, and I encourage this community to not to ridicule people in Wyoming for their very clear majority choice. In their point of view, they are making the best choice for their interests, so calling them stupid only deepens their resolve.<< Your comment explains why they are making the current choice and I guess it makes sense. They are giving themselves a lifeline. What they should do now is have a plan to decrease their dependence on coal in case the price of coal collapses, which currently seems to be heading in that direction. Otherwise it looks like they are setting themselves up for something similar to what happened in [1]. The whole thing will collapse and they will not be prepared for it. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_the_Atlantic_northwest_cod_fishery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_the_Atlantic_north...

by diafygi 10y ago

whyileft 10y ago

Also, a bit of a bikeshed since energy usage in Wyoming isn't all that significant. That said, the use of the all too common dismissive comment stating that if you are not physically doing something about it then you are part of the problem is caveman thinking. Actively fighting and protesting can do more harm than good. Freedom of speech is sometimes more about combined civil public discourse as opposed to aggressive and manipulative tactics of seizing power and pushing propaganda as you have suggested.

pjc50 10y ago

Is this actually a majority choice, or is this just something the state government has decided to do?

brianwawok 10y ago
I wouldn't be surprised if it were the majority voice. If my career was coal and my entire life was coal, I would care a lot more about my life than the environment in 100 years. I think the rational thing to do in fact would be what they just did. Fight renewable and encourage coal. This is not to say that very locally rational choices can not be horrible on the global scale. Which is why I think a strong federal /global team effort is needed to make smart choices for the planet. The federal level could likely shut down this kind of law. I suspect Obama would have, but that Trump would not (hence the timing of the bill).
philipkglass 10y ago
It's a fight between Wyoming counties that get revenue/jobs more from coal mining and/or combustion and those that are less coal-dependent. Wind is newer and smaller so coal has the more powerful voice at the whole-state level. http://www.wyomingbusinessreport.com/newsletter_am/proposed-wind-tax-threatens-wind-energy-project-again/article_1aa1438a-df1d-11e6-9c33-1ffe3d59d0e3.html http://www.wyomingbusinessreport.com/newsletter_am/proposed-... House Bill 0127, sponsored by Reps. Scott Clem, R-Gillette, and Michael Madden, R-Buffalo, as well as Sen. Cale Case, R-Lander, states that in addition to the current $1 tax per megawatt hour on wind energy, there will be a tax of $4 on each megawatt hour. The revenue collected from that $4 hike would go directly into the state general fund, while the original and current single dollar rate would remain in its current 60/40 split with the state. Wyoming is the only state in the nation that taxes wind. “Changing the rules this late in the planning and permitting process seems like retribution,” Carbon County Commissioner Lindy Glode said at a meeting of the Carbon County Council of Governments, where discussion of the bill was on the agenda. Note that this is a separate but similar-in-spirit bill to the proposed $10/MWh tax on wind and solar. The county commissioner from a wind-friendly county is naturally angry that the state is trying to quadruple the wind tax and ensure that none of the increase goes to counties where the wind projects are located. The game is pretty transparent: coal's defenders are trying to ensure that counties with less coal-centered business don't "defect" to hosting renewable projects that could decrease the market demand for coal-fired electricity. Heaping on taxes and not permitting host-counties to get any of that extra tax revenue is how they're trying to do it.

chc 10y ago

People have already tried B. I seriously doubt there are a lot of people in Wyoming who sincerely don't know why renewables exist.

the8472 10y ago

> (a) Move to Wyoming and outvote the existing population Pollution and global warming are not a local effects. Therefore it should not be solely their decision. It should be regulated at a national or international level instead since it affects everyone. And well, obama tried but it didn't last. So we should escalate: (e) The international community takes action and imposes trade sanctions on wyoming or america. And if that fails resorts to an invasion.

cloakandswagger 10y ago
>And if that fails resorts to an invasion It always astonishes me when statists are so clear about their violent propensities.
- istjohn 10y ago
  Destroying the earth is violence.
  - cloakandswagger 10y ago
    Let me see if I understand: Industries are destroying the environment, which supports human life, and you want to stop this presumably because human life has some intrinsic value. Your answer to this is to use the force of the state to destroy those industries, and if they resist you will literally kill the people opposing you. Do those lives have less value than others? Or is this a twisted greater good type of thing, where you think climate change is happening so quickly that we should jump to dropping bombs to stop it? (hint: it's not)
    - JoeAltmaier 10y ago
      Really? You've not been paying attention then. Further the risk exists that we cross a tipping point before we even know it. There are sensible arguments for stopping polluting industry now, by any means necessary. Glib rationalization isn't a counter-argument. Science would be, if we had good enough models to know.

int_19h 10y ago

Even if something is a majority choice, that doesn't automatically mean that it isn't silly. And silly choices absolutely deserve ridicule. Have you ever heard the phrase "One million lemmings can't be wrong"?

lancewiggs 10y ago

(e) Wait for Wyoming to lose their coal industry as renewables from nearby states undercut their export of electricity market. After a while this law acts like a tariff, and local people will simply pay higher prices to support an inefficient industry. This might take longer than it should, as there is no carbon tax, but it will happen. It's already cheaper to build renewable plants now, and with a marginal cost, once built, of $0, the renewables will win in the coming price war. https://understandsolar.com/solar-energy-vs-coal/ https://understandsolar.com/solar-energy-vs-coal/

felipemnoa 10y ago

>>I work in renewables, and I encourage this community to not to ridicule people in Wyoming for their very clear majority choice. In their point of view, they are making the best choice for their interests, so calling them stupid only deepens their resolve.<< Your comment explains why they are making the current choice and I guess it makes sense. They are giving themselves a lifeline. What they should do now is have a plan to decrease their dependence on coal in case the price of coal collapses, which currently seems to be heading in that direction. Otherwise it looks like they are setting themselves up for something similar to what happened in [1]. The whole thing will collapse and they will not be prepared for it. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_the_Atlantic_northwest_cod_fishery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_the_Atlantic_north...