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I think there is too much politics behind fsf. Instead of battling for users they are battling for licenses.

by vpol 10y ago

icebraining 10y ago
The FSF is a political organization; saying it has too much politics behind it is an oxymoron. And choosing to go after users over licenses is also a political decision. Besides, we already have Open Source as a movement that makes the pragmatic argument for free software, there's no need to water down the FSF.
- sbuttgereit 10y ago
  Exactly correct. There are basic philosophical underpinnings to the GNU/FSF approach to open source and as such the FSF's entire purpose is advancing those principles, not just some general sense of "open source". I personally don't hold their vision and I find their philosophical position flawed. I see tactical use in their licenses when I want to limit certain developer freedoms without having a fully closed source license, but will generally license MIT if creating a genuinely open source piece work.
- Nomentatus 10y ago
  Then let's rephrase to meet that cavil - there's far too much irrelevant, futile and stupendously wasteful politics, then. The (yes, political) goal of free software is wonderful. Copyleft is a great invention. But the continued insistence on grabbing patents or even obviating patent law in its entire from within a software license - and also the mission to prevent tivoization (which I might want to protect my OS from an inside job or proximate attack, thank you) - has wasted billions of dollars (Google recreating GNU under a more liberal license), fragmented the movement, and tainted the brand, too.
  - belorn 10y ago
    Clearly you share the goal but not the politics in how to reach it. That happens in practically every political movement. Let imagine a similar comment for ecopolitics: "The goal of ecopolitics is wonderful. Green energy is a great invention. But the continued insistence on reduced emissions or even a stop to burning fossil fuels in its entire - and also the mission to prevent non-ecological farming (which make food I might want to eat, thank you) - has wasted billions of dollars and fragmented the movement. To conclude, all discussions about climate change should stop and the movement should simply focus on building electric cars and wind farms."
    - Nomentatus 10y ago
      So, here you are "strenuously agreeing" with me that the original statement was false. We both think that "saying it has too much politics behind it is an oxymoron" is false. You and I agree that one can think that the ice cream cone might have one too many toppings, and to utter such a statement ain't oxymoronic - debatable, but not in any way contradictory. In fact, you think "too much politics" is a common cry. Yes, it is a common kind of debate, but not therefore trivial - since one might end up with a lot of ice cream on one's shirt if the pile of toppings is too high. I think that's already happened. The more people try to bundle what are in fact quite distinct aims into one movement, the greater chance of failure. Not to mention the greater chance of including an aim which is harmful, not helpful. So I'll stand by my thought that adding in the defeating-the-patent-system-or-bust goal was maybe a tad much. Nobody doubts that politics are complex and divisions common therein; but surely it's also obvious that politic movements can vary in complexity (number of toppings,) too. One can't always follow Lincoln's first law of strategy: "One war at a time", but it's an excellent rule of thumb, for politics as well as war, and I think it's pretty clear to most of us now that the EFF has wandered much too far from it, with (economically) catastrophic results - namely all those wasted billions, not to mention the limited supply of developer work-years thrown away on mere rewrites. Not every political movement overreaches anything like this badly. That there are other arguments with a similar structure to mine does not distress me. That other, false axioms plugged into the same structure might produce a false result doesn't - and of course shouldn't - dismay me either. (Which is not to take one side in the example argument you cite. Not here, anyway.)
hannob 10y ago
A license defines what a user is allowed to do with a software. Therefore battling for licenses can very well mean battling for users and seeing them as a contradiction doesn't make any sense.
- berry_sortoro 10y ago
  Yeah I would replace "can very well mean" with "is in fact"
mlinksva 10y ago
Battling for licenses is a symptom of too little and small-thinking politics, not too much. Fortunately they included https://www.fsf.org/campaigns/priority-projects/free-software-adoption-by-governments https://www.fsf.org/campaigns/priority-projects/free-softwar... which is a step toward engaging in something more.
- vpol 10y ago
  That's what I actually meant.

I think there is too much politics behind fsf. Instead of battling for users they are battling for licenses.

by vpol 10y ago

I think there is too much politics behind fsf. Instead of battling for users they are battling for licenses.

The FSF is a political organization; saying it has too much politics behind it is an oxymoron. And choosing to go after users over licenses is also a political decision. Besides, we already have Open Source as a movement that makes the pragmatic argument for free software, there's no need to water down the FSF.

sbuttgereit 10y ago
Exactly correct. There are basic philosophical underpinnings to the GNU/FSF approach to open source and as such the FSF's entire purpose is advancing those principles, not just some general sense of "open source". I personally don't hold their vision and I find their philosophical position flawed. I see tactical use in their licenses when I want to limit certain developer freedoms without having a fully closed source license, but will generally license MIT if creating a genuinely open source piece work.
Nomentatus 10y ago
Then let's rephrase to meet that cavil - there's far too much irrelevant, futile and stupendously wasteful politics, then. The (yes, political) goal of free software is wonderful. Copyleft is a great invention. But the continued insistence on grabbing patents or even obviating patent law in its entire from within a software license - and also the mission to prevent tivoization (which I might want to protect my OS from an inside job or proximate attack, thank you) - has wasted billions of dollars (Google recreating GNU under a more liberal license), fragmented the movement, and tainted the brand, too.
- belorn 10y ago
  Clearly you share the goal but not the politics in how to reach it. That happens in practically every political movement. Let imagine a similar comment for ecopolitics: "The goal of ecopolitics is wonderful. Green energy is a great invention. But the continued insistence on reduced emissions or even a stop to burning fossil fuels in its entire - and also the mission to prevent non-ecological farming (which make food I might want to eat, thank you) - has wasted billions of dollars and fragmented the movement. To conclude, all discussions about climate change should stop and the movement should simply focus on building electric cars and wind farms."
  - Nomentatus 10y ago
    So, here you are "strenuously agreeing" with me that the original statement was false. We both think that "saying it has too much politics behind it is an oxymoron" is false. You and I agree that one can think that the ice cream cone might have one too many toppings, and to utter such a statement ain't oxymoronic - debatable, but not in any way contradictory. In fact, you think "too much politics" is a common cry. Yes, it is a common kind of debate, but not therefore trivial - since one might end up with a lot of ice cream on one's shirt if the pile of toppings is too high. I think that's already happened. The more people try to bundle what are in fact quite distinct aims into one movement, the greater chance of failure. Not to mention the greater chance of including an aim which is harmful, not helpful. So I'll stand by my thought that adding in the defeating-the-patent-system-or-bust goal was maybe a tad much. Nobody doubts that politics are complex and divisions common therein; but surely it's also obvious that politic movements can vary in complexity (number of toppings,) too. One can't always follow Lincoln's first law of strategy: "One war at a time", but it's an excellent rule of thumb, for politics as well as war, and I think it's pretty clear to most of us now that the EFF has wandered much too far from it, with (economically) catastrophic results - namely all those wasted billions, not to mention the limited supply of developer work-years thrown away on mere rewrites. Not every political movement overreaches anything like this badly. That there are other arguments with a similar structure to mine does not distress me. That other, false axioms plugged into the same structure might produce a false result doesn't - and of course shouldn't - dismay me either. (Which is not to take one side in the example argument you cite. Not here, anyway.)

hannob 10y ago

A license defines what a user is allowed to do with a software. Therefore battling for licenses can very well mean battling for users and seeing them as a contradiction doesn't make any sense.

berry_sortoro 10y ago
Yeah I would replace "can very well mean" with "is in fact"

mlinksva 10y ago

Battling for licenses is a symptom of too little and small-thinking politics, not too much. Fortunately they included https://www.fsf.org/campaigns/priority-projects/free-software-adoption-by-governments https://www.fsf.org/campaigns/priority-projects/free-softwar... which is a step toward engaging in something more.

vpol 10y ago
That's what I actually meant.