6 ms·

It seems like you read neither my post nor the article itself. The article was proposing redistribution of income, so it's definitely NOT equivalent to the gove

It seems like you read neither my post nor the article itself. The article was proposing redistribution of income, so it's definitely NOT equivalent to the government printing money. And in my post, I listed several cases of stuff people will buy less of and other stuff people will not buy more of in a basic income society.

tomp 10y ago
I'm not sure if you're purposefully ignoring the main issues with UBI, but in case you're not: the most important stuff (things like food, rent, clothing, energy, medicine, basic services) will have more demand (from all the people who can't afford these right now), and less supply (because a lot of these are done with low-paid labour - definitely clothing, food and basic services, along with things like garbage collection and construction). This will completely change how the society works.
- boomboomsubban 10y ago
  So if the supply of low paid labor drops, and the demand rises, the value of low paid labor increases. The reason those jobs have been filled with low paid labor is the workers had no other choice. In this situation they'd end up well rewarded for their work, and those workers with more spending power has traditionally been great for the economy. Lot's of things have completely changed how society works, why shouldn't society change?
- lotharbot 10y ago
  > "people who can't afford these right now" ... but are still getting those things through means-tested programs, for the most part. The UBI doesn't mean more people get fed; it means fewer strings attached to where they choose to live and what food they choose to eat and whether they can get a side job to supplement (google "welfare cliff".)
- stale2002 10y ago
  Supply for food would increase. Because resources are being taken away from rich people and given to poor people. Less Yachts, more food factories. Increased demand CAUSES increased supply.
DougN7 10y ago
Yes, the price of yachts won't increase, but who cares? Do a simple thought experiment. Imagine there are 1 million poor. They, and everyone else, receive $12K per year. The poor (and those just above them on the economic ladder) will spend all of that on basic needs: food, housing, clothing, transportation. That's $12 Billion more now competing for a fixed amount of goods. What would any company/retailer/landlord do if they immediately sold out of everything they had? They'd raise prices until supply and demand were in equilibrium again. And thus the very things the poor need are the things the prices will increase the most, by virtue of them competing to purchase those items. I'm not saying it's fair or right. But it is reality.
- jganetsk 10y ago
  Very little of what you said is reality. > They, and everyone else, receive $12k per year. You didn't read the article. The only people who receive net $12k per year are those who have zero income. Everyone else receives net <$12k per year, because some of their income is taxed in order to finance basic income. > The poor (and those just above them on the economic ladder) will spend all of that on basic needs: food, housing, clothing, transportation. Incorrect. Who are you to dictate to people how to spend that money? "All" is not the amount they will spend, and "basic needs" is not the only thing they will spend it on. They will save some of it. And they will spend some (maybe close to all) of that money on paying off debt. There is $747 billion in credit card debt, $1.14 trillion in auto loans, and $1.28 trillion in student loads. And some of it will go to everything else: alcohol, video games, travel, etc. And by the way, how many Big Macs do you think people want to buy? How many houses do you think they want to buy? How many trips do you think they want to take? > That's $12 Billion more now competing for a fixed amount of goods. Definitely not $12 Billion, as I have demonstrated above. And there is no such thing as a "fixed amount of goods" in economics. Of course prices will change. But they will change in healthy ways. The idea that there's some sort of feedback loop present here that causes basic income to cancel out its own effects is completely unfounded.
  - DougN7 10y ago
    I'm starting to think you're trolling. You're zeroing in on phrases and ignoring the principles they explain. And what is a 'healthy way' for prices to change for basic needs? They aren't going to drop. Any other change hurts the poor.

tomp 10y ago

I'm not sure if you're purposefully ignoring the main issues with UBI, but in case you're not: the most important stuff (things like food, rent, clothing, energy, medicine, basic services) will have more demand (from all the people who can't afford these right now), and less supply (because a lot of these are done with low-paid labour - definitely clothing, food and basic services, along with things like garbage collection and construction). This will completely change how the society works.

boomboomsubban 10y ago
So if the supply of low paid labor drops, and the demand rises, the value of low paid labor increases. The reason those jobs have been filled with low paid labor is the workers had no other choice. In this situation they'd end up well rewarded for their work, and those workers with more spending power has traditionally been great for the economy. Lot's of things have completely changed how society works, why shouldn't society change?
lotharbot 10y ago
> "people who can't afford these right now" ... but are still getting those things through means-tested programs, for the most part. The UBI doesn't mean more people get fed; it means fewer strings attached to where they choose to live and what food they choose to eat and whether they can get a side job to supplement (google "welfare cliff".)
stale2002 10y ago
Supply for food would increase. Because resources are being taken away from rich people and given to poor people. Less Yachts, more food factories. Increased demand CAUSES increased supply.

DougN7 10y ago

Yes, the price of yachts won't increase, but who cares? Do a simple thought experiment. Imagine there are 1 million poor. They, and everyone else, receive $12K per year. The poor (and those just above them on the economic ladder) will spend all of that on basic needs: food, housing, clothing, transportation. That's $12 Billion more now competing for a fixed amount of goods. What would any company/retailer/landlord do if they immediately sold out of everything they had? They'd raise prices until supply and demand were in equilibrium again. And thus the very things the poor need are the things the prices will increase the most, by virtue of them competing to purchase those items. I'm not saying it's fair or right. But it is reality.

jganetsk 10y ago
Very little of what you said is reality. > They, and everyone else, receive $12k per year. You didn't read the article. The only people who receive net $12k per year are those who have zero income. Everyone else receives net <$12k per year, because some of their income is taxed in order to finance basic income. > The poor (and those just above them on the economic ladder) will spend all of that on basic needs: food, housing, clothing, transportation. Incorrect. Who are you to dictate to people how to spend that money? "All" is not the amount they will spend, and "basic needs" is not the only thing they will spend it on. They will save some of it. And they will spend some (maybe close to all) of that money on paying off debt. There is $747 billion in credit card debt, $1.14 trillion in auto loans, and $1.28 trillion in student loads. And some of it will go to everything else: alcohol, video games, travel, etc. And by the way, how many Big Macs do you think people want to buy? How many houses do you think they want to buy? How many trips do you think they want to take? > That's $12 Billion more now competing for a fixed amount of goods. Definitely not $12 Billion, as I have demonstrated above. And there is no such thing as a "fixed amount of goods" in economics. Of course prices will change. But they will change in healthy ways. The idea that there's some sort of feedback loop present here that causes basic income to cancel out its own effects is completely unfounded.
- DougN7 10y ago
  I'm starting to think you're trolling. You're zeroing in on phrases and ignoring the principles they explain. And what is a 'healthy way' for prices to change for basic needs? They aren't going to drop. Any other change hurts the poor.