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"bacteria will stop spending energy on resistance and become vulnerable again." Correct me if I'm wrong but ones bacteria modified by natural selection they wi

by chamoda 10y ago

"bacteria will stop spending energy on resistance and become vulnerable again." Correct me if I'm wrong but ones bacteria modified by natural selection they will continue the resistance (genes) in future bacterial generations.

glormph 10y ago
No expert, but theoretically new mutations that eliminate resistance may be beneficial by allowing the newly mutated bacteria to outgrow the resistant ones if the mutation leads to spending less energy. Edit: there will also be non-resistant bacteria in the population so the mutation to remove resistance may not even be necessary.
majkinetor 10y ago
You are wrong. 'Use it or loose it' apply to bacteria far more then for example humans. Evolution doesn't work the way you think it does. Its not an adaption to something to all eternity but adaptation for current surroundings - once the context is changed, the genome will change too. The process is simple - the first bacteria that ditch the antibiotic resistence gene will multiply more and use more available resources so other bacteria that have that gene gene (witch becomes resource hog since it doesn't contribute to survival any more) will die out.
- ansible 10y ago
  And you are also wrong. Antibiotic resistant genes don't just disappear when we stop using antibiotics. They will remain in the gene pool effectively forever at low levels. After the first time antibiotic resistance is developed, the gene frequency in the bacteria population may drop to nearly zero after it isn't so useful. But it will come back again very quickly with the reintroduction of that antibiotic. The time scale will be much quicker than when the bacteria first developed antibiotic resistance. Widespread use of antibiotics (especially at low doses) was and is a criminal mistake.
  - majkinetor 10y ago
    You are right, but perspective is needed. How quick is quickly ? Is it quicker to return then they loose it ? Or is it slower to return then to loose it ? If so, we can circulate certain types of ABs effectivelly. > Widespread use of antibiotics (especially at low doses) was and is a criminal mistake. This is not only human made thing. Widespread AB use is common in nature. But AB use for growth promotion IS criminal. And AB should be given as last resort not as usual practice. Good nutrition and adequate supplemenation can cover the rest: - Retynol is epic for mucosal layer protection. - Vitamin D is great anti-infective agent. - Vitamin C is awesome prevention and potential cure for helicobacter pylori. - Many spices are fantastic as ABs. - Fermented foods such as kefir and stuff like spirulina are great addition. - High carb diet reduces immunity a lot. You don't really need ABs every freaking day - its typical that kids have 6 or more tours in a year. My kid is raised with above principles and more and never had an AB even with kindergarten (7 years now). There were also some other problematic procedures such apendixtomy that influence this or usage of ABs with viral diseses (typial to prevent opportunistic infections) or for disease that it doesn't affect much and even makes the organ worse, such as otitis. NSAID use is also contributing A LOT to this. People now bring down temperature on 37.5 and if you don't do it on 38 you are considered lunatic. I simply do no do it up until 40.5 (talking about kids, the exact protocol is contextual and depends on age, length etc). The science showed that when you do that, the disease last longer and mortality is proved to be higher on animals. Brain knows perfectly well when to stop it unless it is broken itself (i.e. meningitis).
    - ansible 10y ago
      You are right, but perspective is needed. How quick is quickly ? Is it quicker to return then they loose it ? Or is it slower to return then to loose it ? If so, we can circulate certain types of ABs effectivelly. You are proposing coordination at the national or international level, among many different companies, medical institutions, and governments. Just getting a ban on the use of antibiotics for non-infection related reasons will be difficult enough.
      - majkinetor 10y ago
cwmma 10y ago
You would be right if the antibiotics resistance was 'free', i.e. had no downside, but IIRC it does pose a cost of some sort so when not in an environment with antibiotics there is evolutionary pressure to lose the resistance.

by chamoda 10y ago

glormph 10y ago

No expert, but theoretically new mutations that eliminate resistance may be beneficial by allowing the newly mutated bacteria to outgrow the resistant ones if the mutation leads to spending less energy. Edit: there will also be non-resistant bacteria in the population so the mutation to remove resistance may not even be necessary.

majkinetor 10y ago

You are wrong. 'Use it or loose it' apply to bacteria far more then for example humans. Evolution doesn't work the way you think it does. Its not an adaption to something to all eternity but adaptation for current surroundings - once the context is changed, the genome will change too. The process is simple - the first bacteria that ditch the antibiotic resistence gene will multiply more and use more available resources so other bacteria that have that gene gene (witch becomes resource hog since it doesn't contribute to survival any more) will die out.

ansible 10y ago
And you are also wrong. Antibiotic resistant genes don't just disappear when we stop using antibiotics. They will remain in the gene pool effectively forever at low levels. After the first time antibiotic resistance is developed, the gene frequency in the bacteria population may drop to nearly zero after it isn't so useful. But it will come back again very quickly with the reintroduction of that antibiotic. The time scale will be much quicker than when the bacteria first developed antibiotic resistance. Widespread use of antibiotics (especially at low doses) was and is a criminal mistake.
- majkinetor 10y ago
  You are right, but perspective is needed. How quick is quickly ? Is it quicker to return then they loose it ? Or is it slower to return then to loose it ? If so, we can circulate certain types of ABs effectivelly. > Widespread use of antibiotics (especially at low doses) was and is a criminal mistake. This is not only human made thing. Widespread AB use is common in nature. But AB use for growth promotion IS criminal. And AB should be given as last resort not as usual practice. Good nutrition and adequate supplemenation can cover the rest: - Retynol is epic for mucosal layer protection. - Vitamin D is great anti-infective agent. - Vitamin C is awesome prevention and potential cure for helicobacter pylori. - Many spices are fantastic as ABs. - Fermented foods such as kefir and stuff like spirulina are great addition. - High carb diet reduces immunity a lot. You don't really need ABs every freaking day - its typical that kids have 6 or more tours in a year. My kid is raised with above principles and more and never had an AB even with kindergarten (7 years now). There were also some other problematic procedures such apendixtomy that influence this or usage of ABs with viral diseses (typial to prevent opportunistic infections) or for disease that it doesn't affect much and even makes the organ worse, such as otitis. NSAID use is also contributing A LOT to this. People now bring down temperature on 37.5 and if you don't do it on 38 you are considered lunatic. I simply do no do it up until 40.5 (talking about kids, the exact protocol is contextual and depends on age, length etc). The science showed that when you do that, the disease last longer and mortality is proved to be higher on animals. Brain knows perfectly well when to stop it unless it is broken itself (i.e. meningitis).
  - ansible 10y ago
    You are right, but perspective is needed. How quick is quickly ? Is it quicker to return then they loose it ? Or is it slower to return then to loose it ? If so, we can circulate certain types of ABs effectivelly. You are proposing coordination at the national or international level, among many different companies, medical institutions, and governments. Just getting a ban on the use of antibiotics for non-infection related reasons will be difficult enough.
    - majkinetor 10y ago

cwmma 10y ago

You would be right if the antibiotics resistance was 'free', i.e. had no downside, but IIRC it does pose a cost of some sort so when not in an environment with antibiotics there is evolutionary pressure to lose the resistance.