5 ms·

Serious question: why is choosing isolation "worst of all"?

by atis 10y ago

jacobolus 10y ago
Isolation often gets a person stuck into positive feedback loops of negative feelings (loneliness, anxiety, sadness, guilt, shame, cynicism, paranoia, listlessness, self loathing, despair, etc.), disrupted circadian rhythms from poor sleep and lack of sunshine, lack of routines and loss of time sense, lack of exercise, unhealthy diet, poor personal hygiene and cleanliness, substance abuse, financial problems, and so on. Without sources of external correction/feedback/perspective, even tiny negative thoughts can get amplified and spiral out of control, and a human can stop behaving within the range of personhood (that is, the usual social construction of normal behavior). Without any human contact, it is difficult to keep control over the focus of attention, find meaning in daily routines and projects, etc. Even trivial tasks can start to take monumental amounts of mental effort. With sufficient sensory deprivation someone can become dissociated or start hallucinating, or can fall into catatonic depression. Some people are obviously better at handling isolation than others, but it’s tough for even the strongest willed. Involuntary isolation (e.g. solitary confinement, or long-term homelessness) is a torturous experience for most people, often causing permanent emotional scars. Voluntary isolation (living as a hermit in the woods to write a novel or whatever) should not be undertaken lightly. Often people isolate themselves after some kind of severe negative shock, e.g. the death of a loved one, a bad break-up, a professional failure, etc. People experiencing strong negative emotions without any social support/comfort from family/friends can get themselves into situations that are difficult or impossible to climb back out of, especially if substance abuse is involved.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- albertTJames 10y ago
  Such a great answer. I think it would deserve a little article on its own.
- xkxx 10y ago
  > Isolation often gets a person stuck into positive feedback loops of negative feelings I became much happier after I chose to be alone. I realized that I'm not meant to have any close friends. I realized that I'm not a likable person. And I realized that it's totally okay. Even if I change to become a "better" (more likable, able to have more friends) person, I won't like myself. I like myself the way I am. Now, if people don't like me, it's their problem: I took every step possible for us to not interact. If they still seek interaction with me and, after it happens, don't like me, well, it's their problem, they chose to seek interaction with me, not me. > cynicism Cynicism is not a feeling. Cynicism is a belief that people always act selfishly. And such a belief has a lot of supporting evidence. Also, cynics are not always negative people. You can be a positive cynic.
  - aoeu345 10y ago
    It's easy to say that you're happier alone. It's much more difficult to admit to yourself that you have social anxiety that keeps you from making relationships. A human that does the first will decay over time. A human that does the second can be anything he/she wants to be. There is enormous supporting evidence that quantity and quality of relationships are directly correlated to happiness
    - ams6110 10y ago
      There's enormous evidence for a lot of things, but that doesn't mean it's equally applicable to every individual. I see no reason to think that some small percentage of people truly are happier alone even if the opposite is true for the large majority.
      - aoeu345 10y ago
        But the human brain is mostly dedicated to socializing and interpreting social signals. If you don't even stretch out those parts of your brain, you're not even satisfying intrinsic human needs.
    - Baeocystin 10y ago
      Do you realize how infuriating your attitude is to people who prefer solitude? I like people. I have no trouble speaking in public, making new friends, or just engaging in small talk. I enjoy it, so it comes easily. I simply enjoy being alone more, so I often am, and there is nothing wrong with me for choosing so. Nor is there with any of the other mostly-hermits I know.
- pmoriarty 10y ago
  As a counterpoint to this, see the many excellent articles on The Hermitary.[1] Also see Anthony Storr's Solitude: A Return to the Self.[2] Many people have historically chosen solitude for religious or spiritual reasons, to focus on something they wanted to achieve, because they just preferred being alone, or for many other reasons. Many societies have stigmatized solitude and those who choose it, but on the other hand there have been social movements which have praised and advocated solitude. [1] - http://www.hermitary.com/articles/ http://www.hermitary.com/articles/ [2] - https://www.amazon.com/Solitude-Return-Self-Anthony-Storr/dp/0743280741/ https://www.amazon.com/Solitude-Return-Self-Anthony-Storr/dp...
  - throwanem 10y ago
    I don't think GP is saying solitude or isolation is necessarily harmful. But for a member of a pack-ape species whose default mode for the individual is some varying degree of gregarity, isolation isn't something to be considered lightly, because it carries significant risk along with potential benefit.
  - Swannie 10y ago
    I'd suggest the key difference is that one is a conscious decision, often taken with prior thought, and often some proactive mental preparation - that could be as simple as reading scripture. The other is typically unconscious, often exacerbated by anti-social behaviour.
- jusq2 10y ago
  Please note the second word of this summary is "often". If you want to know why its "often" and not "always" visit your nearest library and take a look at the size of books on the subject. And here lies the problem with the internet today and the comment boards such as these. People will actually walk away reading these kind of 2 minute summaries thinking they know something about the subject at hand. And on top of that you can get yourself a great rep "educating" and "informing" the public without ever actually "educating" and "informing" the public.
  - Nomentatus 10y ago
    Which is greatly eased by dropping citations or a link, refining or contradicting what others have said - if you would care to do so. Education happens one page and one book at a time, and one can and should start anywhere. That at least some others don't understand as much as you do is inevitable; but don't disdain them for that, help them along.
    - jusq2 10y ago
      I would have agreed with this view a decade ago but I don't today. I believe the internet can't be used to educate people. It's very similar to sending a kid into a gigantic library. They will be able to tell you all kinds of interesting things at the end of the day. But they don't learn anything. Despite libraries having existed for thousands of years, without a school, a teacher and a systematic process of reinforcement no one learns anything. And that's what we have been getting out of the internet a superficial class of "educated" people. Disdain has its purpose. I probably should be using it better I will admit.
      - Nomentatus 10y ago
        I have to admit that (likely being even more ancient than yourself) I've actually flipped back and forth on this issue more than once. Now I think it's like the old Indian metaphor of dying cloth with natural dyes: you dye the cloth and it's bright, then put it in the sun and the UV smashes out nearly all the color. But if you keep rinsing and repeating that process, eventually the color is very bright and doesn't fade. Remember that even if only 1% of your effort teaches anyone anything, the internet will allow a very large number of people over a very long time to "get it" and will preserve that nugget. So your efforts are actually extremely cost-effective - despite all the waste - even if you can't detect that. Then add in ripple effect outside the internet. I've seen some of my contributions become part of common discourse, heard phrases I invented pop up on the news in just that context (after decades of slow spread), seen minor inventions of mine end up in common use across many kinds of sports, etc. It just took decades of slow growth as they spread. I've also watched as reams of old shibboleths and (even academic) ignorance that had persisted for centuries even amongst experts swept away, in most circles anyway, by the gradual power of Wikipedia and Google book search. Of course there will never be a fool shortage, as Barnum noted, more are born every day. But it's getting harder and harder to stay a complete fool. Keep teaching!
- agumonkey 10y ago
  I experienced a traumatic first love. I was mostly a recluse (or a fake social person, relying on protocols or emotional hurdles among people). I was way happier alone minding my own business before, because the relational part of my brain wasn't really active (to the best of my own introspection that's how I describe it). And now that this other person is gone; it made me into a paradox: I now know the physical and emotional values of interpersonal relationship, my mean of getting it isn't there anymore, I can't grieve because few people can understand, but I can't go back to the recluse old me after the memory of bonding as set root and left a mark. The mind is a fascinating thing.
- tbirdz 10y ago
  Does anyone have any resources on how to break out of this "isolation cycle" if one is currently already in it?
  - erikpukinskis 10y ago
    I think the best way is to find one of your hobbies that has a public group and just force yourself to go, and focus on enjoying the part of it you enjoy. If you like MTG, find a local game night. If you like birds, go to a bird watching meetup. If you like activism, go to volunteering events. If you like spirituality, go to a church. And don't feel pressure to "do it right" or impress people in a certain way or make friends. You're probably going to be a weirdo, and that's ok. The goal is to be a weirdo who is enjoying something in the presence of others. Just go, give yourself a pat on the back for sticking around to the end, and then go again the following week. But at a higher level, I think the way you break out of cycles is to first just attack one part of the cycle, and then slowly add more and eventually you are attacking it all at once. If part of why you don't like going out is you don't feel good about yourself, just do your laundry, clean your apartment, take a shower, put on clean clothes, and go for a walk. Then (if you're me) go back to binge eating pizza and browsing Reddit. Don't beat yourself up for the parts of the cycle you're not fixing, just give yourself credit for cleaning your apartment and move on. It won't give way all at once. You've got to basically get practice fixing some parts of the cycle, which will have some small benefit, and over time you'll get closer to having a day where the whole cycle collapses and you do a complete virtuous cycle instead. TL;DR: just attack part of the cycle, focus on your successes, and don't beat yourself up too much.
- rak00n 10y ago
  It resonated with me. You wrote it very eloquently.
quickben 10y ago
We did not evolve in isolation, or cope well with it. Find your tribe, whatever it may be, and you'll be happier.
- throwanem 10y ago
  Or find a way to fit well enough into the tribe at hand that your pack-ape instincts are satisfied.

Serious question: why is choosing isolation "worst of all"?

by atis 10y ago

Serious question: why is choosing isolation "worst of all"?

Isolation often gets a person stuck into positive feedback loops of negative feelings (loneliness, anxiety, sadness, guilt, shame, cynicism, paranoia, listlessness, self loathing, despair, etc.), disrupted circadian rhythms from poor sleep and lack of sunshine, lack of routines and loss of time sense, lack of exercise, unhealthy diet, poor personal hygiene and cleanliness, substance abuse, financial problems, and so on. Without sources of external correction/feedback/perspective, even tiny negative thoughts can get amplified and spiral out of control, and a human can stop behaving within the range of personhood (that is, the usual social construction of normal behavior). Without any human contact, it is difficult to keep control over the focus of attention, find meaning in daily routines and projects, etc. Even trivial tasks can start to take monumental amounts of mental effort. With sufficient sensory deprivation someone can become dissociated or start hallucinating, or can fall into catatonic depression. Some people are obviously better at handling isolation than others, but it’s tough for even the strongest willed. Involuntary isolation (e.g. solitary confinement, or long-term homelessness) is a torturous experience for most people, often causing permanent emotional scars. Voluntary isolation (living as a hermit in the woods to write a novel or whatever) should not be undertaken lightly. Often people isolate themselves after some kind of severe negative shock, e.g. the death of a loved one, a bad break-up, a professional failure, etc. People experiencing strong negative emotions without any social support/comfort from family/friends can get themselves into situations that are difficult or impossible to climb back out of, especially if substance abuse is involved.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
albertTJames 10y ago
Such a great answer. I think it would deserve a little article on its own.
xkxx 10y ago
> Isolation often gets a person stuck into positive feedback loops of negative feelings I became much happier after I chose to be alone. I realized that I'm not meant to have any close friends. I realized that I'm not a likable person. And I realized that it's totally okay. Even if I change to become a "better" (more likable, able to have more friends) person, I won't like myself. I like myself the way I am. Now, if people don't like me, it's their problem: I took every step possible for us to not interact. If they still seek interaction with me and, after it happens, don't like me, well, it's their problem, they chose to seek interaction with me, not me. > cynicism Cynicism is not a feeling. Cynicism is a belief that people always act selfishly. And such a belief has a lot of supporting evidence. Also, cynics are not always negative people. You can be a positive cynic.
- aoeu345 10y ago
  It's easy to say that you're happier alone. It's much more difficult to admit to yourself that you have social anxiety that keeps you from making relationships. A human that does the first will decay over time. A human that does the second can be anything he/she wants to be. There is enormous supporting evidence that quantity and quality of relationships are directly correlated to happiness
  - ams6110 10y ago
    There's enormous evidence for a lot of things, but that doesn't mean it's equally applicable to every individual. I see no reason to think that some small percentage of people truly are happier alone even if the opposite is true for the large majority.
    - aoeu345 10y ago
      But the human brain is mostly dedicated to socializing and interpreting social signals. If you don't even stretch out those parts of your brain, you're not even satisfying intrinsic human needs.
  - Baeocystin 10y ago
    Do you realize how infuriating your attitude is to people who prefer solitude? I like people. I have no trouble speaking in public, making new friends, or just engaging in small talk. I enjoy it, so it comes easily. I simply enjoy being alone more, so I often am, and there is nothing wrong with me for choosing so. Nor is there with any of the other mostly-hermits I know.
pmoriarty 10y ago
As a counterpoint to this, see the many excellent articles on The Hermitary.[1] Also see Anthony Storr's Solitude: A Return to the Self.[2] Many people have historically chosen solitude for religious or spiritual reasons, to focus on something they wanted to achieve, because they just preferred being alone, or for many other reasons. Many societies have stigmatized solitude and those who choose it, but on the other hand there have been social movements which have praised and advocated solitude. [1] - http://www.hermitary.com/articles/ http://www.hermitary.com/articles/ [2] - https://www.amazon.com/Solitude-Return-Self-Anthony-Storr/dp/0743280741/ https://www.amazon.com/Solitude-Return-Self-Anthony-Storr/dp...
- throwanem 10y ago
  I don't think GP is saying solitude or isolation is necessarily harmful. But for a member of a pack-ape species whose default mode for the individual is some varying degree of gregarity, isolation isn't something to be considered lightly, because it carries significant risk along with potential benefit.
- Swannie 10y ago
  I'd suggest the key difference is that one is a conscious decision, often taken with prior thought, and often some proactive mental preparation - that could be as simple as reading scripture. The other is typically unconscious, often exacerbated by anti-social behaviour.
jusq2 10y ago
Please note the second word of this summary is "often". If you want to know why its "often" and not "always" visit your nearest library and take a look at the size of books on the subject. And here lies the problem with the internet today and the comment boards such as these. People will actually walk away reading these kind of 2 minute summaries thinking they know something about the subject at hand. And on top of that you can get yourself a great rep "educating" and "informing" the public without ever actually "educating" and "informing" the public.
- Nomentatus 10y ago
  Which is greatly eased by dropping citations or a link, refining or contradicting what others have said - if you would care to do so. Education happens one page and one book at a time, and one can and should start anywhere. That at least some others don't understand as much as you do is inevitable; but don't disdain them for that, help them along.
  - jusq2 10y ago
    I would have agreed with this view a decade ago but I don't today. I believe the internet can't be used to educate people. It's very similar to sending a kid into a gigantic library. They will be able to tell you all kinds of interesting things at the end of the day. But they don't learn anything. Despite libraries having existed for thousands of years, without a school, a teacher and a systematic process of reinforcement no one learns anything. And that's what we have been getting out of the internet a superficial class of "educated" people. Disdain has its purpose. I probably should be using it better I will admit.
    - Nomentatus 10y ago
      I have to admit that (likely being even more ancient than yourself) I've actually flipped back and forth on this issue more than once. Now I think it's like the old Indian metaphor of dying cloth with natural dyes: you dye the cloth and it's bright, then put it in the sun and the UV smashes out nearly all the color. But if you keep rinsing and repeating that process, eventually the color is very bright and doesn't fade. Remember that even if only 1% of your effort teaches anyone anything, the internet will allow a very large number of people over a very long time to "get it" and will preserve that nugget. So your efforts are actually extremely cost-effective - despite all the waste - even if you can't detect that. Then add in ripple effect outside the internet. I've seen some of my contributions become part of common discourse, heard phrases I invented pop up on the news in just that context (after decades of slow spread), seen minor inventions of mine end up in common use across many kinds of sports, etc. It just took decades of slow growth as they spread. I've also watched as reams of old shibboleths and (even academic) ignorance that had persisted for centuries even amongst experts swept away, in most circles anyway, by the gradual power of Wikipedia and Google book search. Of course there will never be a fool shortage, as Barnum noted, more are born every day. But it's getting harder and harder to stay a complete fool. Keep teaching!
agumonkey 10y ago
I experienced a traumatic first love. I was mostly a recluse (or a fake social person, relying on protocols or emotional hurdles among people). I was way happier alone minding my own business before, because the relational part of my brain wasn't really active (to the best of my own introspection that's how I describe it). And now that this other person is gone; it made me into a paradox: I now know the physical and emotional values of interpersonal relationship, my mean of getting it isn't there anymore, I can't grieve because few people can understand, but I can't go back to the recluse old me after the memory of bonding as set root and left a mark. The mind is a fascinating thing.
tbirdz 10y ago
Does anyone have any resources on how to break out of this "isolation cycle" if one is currently already in it?
- erikpukinskis 10y ago
  I think the best way is to find one of your hobbies that has a public group and just force yourself to go, and focus on enjoying the part of it you enjoy. If you like MTG, find a local game night. If you like birds, go to a bird watching meetup. If you like activism, go to volunteering events. If you like spirituality, go to a church. And don't feel pressure to "do it right" or impress people in a certain way or make friends. You're probably going to be a weirdo, and that's ok. The goal is to be a weirdo who is enjoying something in the presence of others. Just go, give yourself a pat on the back for sticking around to the end, and then go again the following week. But at a higher level, I think the way you break out of cycles is to first just attack one part of the cycle, and then slowly add more and eventually you are attacking it all at once. If part of why you don't like going out is you don't feel good about yourself, just do your laundry, clean your apartment, take a shower, put on clean clothes, and go for a walk. Then (if you're me) go back to binge eating pizza and browsing Reddit. Don't beat yourself up for the parts of the cycle you're not fixing, just give yourself credit for cleaning your apartment and move on. It won't give way all at once. You've got to basically get practice fixing some parts of the cycle, which will have some small benefit, and over time you'll get closer to having a day where the whole cycle collapses and you do a complete virtuous cycle instead. TL;DR: just attack part of the cycle, focus on your successes, and don't beat yourself up too much.
rak00n 10y ago
It resonated with me. You wrote it very eloquently.

quickben 10y ago

We did not evolve in isolation, or cope well with it. Find your tribe, whatever it may be, and you'll be happier.

throwanem 10y ago
Or find a way to fit well enough into the tribe at hand that your pack-ape instincts are satisfied.