4 ms·

Immigrant engineers don't drive down U.S. wages

6 points by cwan 17y ago

Amanjeev 17y ago
There has been studies after studies on this but I think we all want our jobs rather be outsourced at 1/20th of the wage than have <1% of qualified degree(s) holders come to US and work here, pay taxes, contribute to Social Sec. and Medicare etc. I wish we all could see how media (Lou Dobbs etc.) are just trying to sensationalize H1B for their own gains and nothing else.
yummyfajitas 17y ago
Title is misleading. The fact that immigrants are paid more does not prove that they do not drive down US wages. If some fraction of the high-wage jobs filled by foreign engineers would have been filled by US engineers, then the foreign engineers drove the US engineers into lower paying jobs. I don't know if or how often that scenario occurs, nor am I arguing against skilled immigration, just pointing out a bad title.
- hga 17y ago
  Indeed, it's called supply and demand. The one thing we know for sure is that there isn't a shortage of engineers, else we'd see rising real wages (real == after inflation).
geebee 17y ago
"IT professionals in the U.S. who are not citizens actually earned more than their American colleagues from 2000-2005 and therefore did not depress the salaries of American citizens" I disagree with the logic in this statement, because I don't think that you can conclude that non-citizens don't depress wages simply because they earn more on average than citizens. By the way, this point of logic doesn't necessarily refute the conclusion, I'm just disagreeing with the reasoning. Suppose that IT Professionals fall neatly into two groups. 90% are software installers, and 10% are ultra programmers. Software installers are poorly paid and have no programming ability. Ultra Programmers are intensely educated, well paid, high IQ people who study constantly. Software installers earn 50K/year, and Ultra Programmers earn 150K/yr. Now, suppose you double the number of ultra programmers through a visa program that results in a 25k salary drop for ultra programmers. Well, the average salary for the non-citizen programmers would still be well above the average pay, and it would have increased the average pay, but it would have decreased the "ultra programmer" pay, right? And it would have done this in a way that led to a decrease in average pay for the citizens. out of 10 (9 * 50 + 1 * 150) / 10 = 60 (old average for all IT pros) (9 * 50 + 2 * 125) / 10 = 70 (new average for all IT pros with twice as many ultras at lightly lower pay, one citizen, one non-citizen) (9 * 50 + 1 * 125) / 10 = 57.5 (new average for citizens)

6 points by cwan 17y ago

There has been studies after studies on this but I think we all want our jobs rather be outsourced at 1/20th of the wage than have <1% of qualified degree(s) holders come to US and work here, pay taxes, contribute to Social Sec. and Medicare etc. I wish we all could see how media (Lou Dobbs etc.) are just trying to sensationalize H1B for their own gains and nothing else.

yummyfajitas 17y ago

Title is misleading. The fact that immigrants are paid more does not prove that they do not drive down US wages. If some fraction of the high-wage jobs filled by foreign engineers would have been filled by US engineers, then the foreign engineers drove the US engineers into lower paying jobs. I don't know if or how often that scenario occurs, nor am I arguing against skilled immigration, just pointing out a bad title.

hga 17y ago
Indeed, it's called supply and demand. The one thing we know for sure is that there isn't a shortage of engineers, else we'd see rising real wages (real == after inflation).

geebee 17y ago

"IT professionals in the U.S. who are not citizens actually earned more than their American colleagues from 2000-2005 and therefore did not depress the salaries of American citizens" I disagree with the logic in this statement, because I don't think that you can conclude that non-citizens don't depress wages simply because they earn more on average than citizens. By the way, this point of logic doesn't necessarily refute the conclusion, I'm just disagreeing with the reasoning. Suppose that IT Professionals fall neatly into two groups. 90% are software installers, and 10% are ultra programmers. Software installers are poorly paid and have no programming ability. Ultra Programmers are intensely educated, well paid, high IQ people who study constantly. Software installers earn 50K/year, and Ultra Programmers earn 150K/yr. Now, suppose you double the number of ultra programmers through a visa program that results in a 25k salary drop for ultra programmers. Well, the average salary for the non-citizen programmers would still be well above the average pay, and it would have increased the average pay, but it would have decreased the "ultra programmer" pay, right? And it would have done this in a way that led to a decrease in average pay for the citizens. out of 10 (9 * 50 + 1 * 150) / 10 = 60 (old average for all IT pros) (9 * 50 + 2 * 125) / 10 = 70 (new average for all IT pros with twice as many ultras at lightly lower pay, one citizen, one non-citizen) (9 * 50 + 1 * 125) / 10 = 57.5 (new average for citizens)