12 ms·

Why Peter Thiel Fears Star Trek

121 points by tsunamifury 10y ago

tyingq 10y ago
They don't touch on the other Star Trek society that has no need for money and materialism...the Borg.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- aaron-lebo 10y ago
  What about Khan? According to the backstory revealed in the episode, Khan is one of a group of genetically engineered superhumans, bred to be free of the usual human mental and physical limitations, who were removed from power after the Eugenics Wars of the 1990s.[3] Khan had been both the most successful conqueror and the most benign ruler of the group, ruling more than a quarter of the Earth's area across Asia to the Middle East from 1992 to 1996 with a firm but generally peaceful hand until he was deposed. There's a lot of would be rulers practically mimicking that today. Isn't the big issue about how you get from a society with scarcity to one without? Nobody agrees how that should be done (or perhaps for some if it can), and without that agreement someone is going to have to force that from above and force that on to other people. Someone has to be the loser, whether it's the working class person in middle America or the Middle Eastern refugee. I guess Thiel is against that from above approach, though it's ironic that he should be one of the largest funders, drivers, and proponents of illiberal and undemocratic companies.
  - Arizhel 10y ago
    What are you talking about? No one really has to "lose" much of anything in a post-scarcity society, because, by definition, there's no scarcity! Now in reality it isn't quite so simple, but remember we're talking about fictional future societies where many resources (esp. energy) simply are not scarce the way they are now, so this may be hard for a lot of people to grasp. So in that society, food, energy, material things are generally free or extremely cheap. The main thing that probably still will be scarce is real estate. So if you're a billionaire with a 700-acre compound in Hawaii, then in a socialist post-scarcity society, you're probably going to lose out eventually. But for everyone else, there's really no downside. Middle Eastern refugees will enjoy the same lifestyle as middle class middle Americans (and might not need to feel the need to leave the middle east at all; such a society wouldn't have problems with civil wars and unrest), and the latter will have a nicer lifestyle without having to slave away at some soul-sucking job and worrying about losing healthcare benefits. But neither of them is likely going to be able to own a whole tropical island and have an army of (human) servants.
arethuza 10y ago
Elon Musk should lend him a Culture novel... :-)
- ben_w 10y ago
  Thiel may blow a fuse if he realises quite how many Culture references Musk has been making over the years. :)
- metaphorm 10y ago
  this is a great idea. how can we get Thiel to read some Iain Banks?
  - rbanffy 10y ago
    We could send him books.
mikestew 10y ago
I kind of skimmed the article, mainly because I can't be bothered to care about the topic, but I didn't see where Theil "fears" _Star Trek_. But let's run with that: why does Mr. Theil fear _Star Trek_? Because that world doesn't need Peter Theil. If you think Ayn Rand is an insightful novelist, then ST:NG probably isn't going to be your preferred brand of entertainment. But it seems to me the article misses the mark in that it assumes Theil to be a "tech guy". Meh, I dunno, I kind of view him as a "money guy" who happened to bet on some tech companies. It's a cherry-picked (by me) quote, but: "In 2011, for instance, he told George Packer that he did not consider the iPhone a technological breakthrough. 'Compare this with the Apollo space program'" The Apollo space program, which ended before most people were born (or thereabouts), affected our lives in a peripheral manner if at all. Tang, Velcro, and a big swinging "if we can put a man on the moon, we can put an ICBM on your capitol" dick to show for it. Umm, thanks, I guess. Too bad there's no real follow-through fifty years later. The "super-computer-in-your-pocket", OTOH, changed the way people live their lives (and, granted, not all for the better). I don't ask for directions, I don't have a land line, and any question I might have ("what octane fuel goes in this car?", "where's the fuse box on this thing?") can be answered instantly. So I guess I don't care which side Theil takes in the "Star Wars/Star Trek" nerd battle.
- tyingq 10y ago
  >I didn't see where Theil "fears" _Star Trek_. It was hard to find. Here's where they finally state their case: "What is anathema to Thiel in “Star Trek” is the notion, drawn from Isaac Asimov’s fiction, that the market is but a temporary solution to imbalances in supply and demand, and that technology and plenty will eventually make it obsolete" So, he "fears" that capitalism will go away...according the them anyway. They seem to source some of that thought from what they call his "Cato Essay", here: https://www.cato-unbound.org/2009/04/13/peter-thiel/education-libertarian https://www.cato-unbound.org/2009/04/13/peter-thiel/educatio...
  - rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
    Only a wealthy capitalist could see a downside to their relative wealth being diminished as technology and trade ensures that all necessities for human life are provided as human rights. But I guess some middle class people always dream of being the one great king who isn't starving.
Houshalter 10y ago
Neither Star Wars or Star trek go into very much depth of how their societies actually work. Star Trek doesn't tell us how their economy is managed or their internal politics. Sure they have replicators, but their are still things that need to be done by people, and resources that can't be replicated. Star Wars says it's capitalist, but I don't believe it. In many of the scenes you see people doing jobs that could easily be done by droids. Even their wars are fought with droids - or manufactured humans that are treated like droids. Droids are generally intelligent and can basically do any job people can do. Why do they need people at all? Star trek has that problem too. How often do the characters ask the computer to do pretty complex tasks? Why do they need a crew of hundreds, when almost everything is automated? All science fiction paints a 20th century society with a pretty futuristic backdrop and props. But things like AI and replicators would radically change the way things work. And create a society very different than what we know. Quite possibly one without humans. What would really happen if any lunatic could replicate parts for WMDs? Or if robots that were really smarter than humans appeared?
- teilo 10y ago
  >Star Trek doesn't tell us how their economy is managed or their internal politics. True, but there is this much: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H5uPyU2oKE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H5uPyU2oKE Other references: http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Money http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Money
  - jaggednad 10y ago
    Also, there's this in in episode 26 of Season 1 of the Next Generation, in which a group of people who were frozen and kept alive in the 20th century are found and unthawed on the Enterprise: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQQYbKT_rMg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQQYbKT_rMg
- 3pt14159 10y ago
  What do more advanced societies generally do with less advanced societies that they don't need something from? They leave them alone and maybe come to visit once in a while. What does a sentient replicator robot care if a little boy just wants to whittle a bowl out of a piece of wood? It's kinda neat, and stories are interesting and the minds of the future will presumably have solve the security problem, or at least as much as MAD solves it, and the scarcity problem, at least as much as scarcity is a problem for most people. After that there is just discovery, enjoyment, merriment, world building, love. What do we do with our abundance of CPU cycles? We watch cat videos and text our friends. I kinda view it the same way if we can survive the next 100 years or so where things are little unstable.
hnhg 10y ago
I read the original interview and his comment seemed tongue-in-cheek and aware that it would court needless attention. I don't feel it warrants this level of scrutiny.
cgriswald 10y ago
I'm not sure how the economy of the Empire works, but I am pretty sure it's not a "libertarian fever dream" as suggested by the article. Most of the places in Star Wars are places not under the thumb of the Empire, and the closest place I can even see that isn't effectively a black market (like Mos Eisley) is Cloud City, which, of course, the government came in and shut down after promising it would allow it to operate freely. Where free trade does seem to operate (the Trade Federation) it leads to corruption and war. And let's not forget that Han Solo is a smuggler. He's in debt because the government caught him with contraband and had to lose it. Star Trek also features many other economies, including that of the Ferengi, which are extremely materialistic. This is the focus of many DS9 episodes. And even the Federation crew somehow get their hands on money to spend; money that mysteriously can't be replicated. (And, in DS9, back on Earth, Sisko's father makes honest-to-goodness actual food, while Jean-Luc has a vineyard.) Likewise, it's not clear how replicator use works; perhaps they have an allowance. The crew of the Enterprise barely use it, except for food. Their quarters are scarce. So either through monetary, social, or rule-based means, they limit themselves heavily compared to the average American today.
- sandworm101 10y ago
  Fever dream, but with oppressive taxation without representation. The dream exists only on the fringes. Outside the dusty cantenas it appeares a society in lockdown. That isnt libertarian but something closer to comicbook communism. I have trouble pinning the political system in star wars. It has changed several times as the movies have adapted to new audiances (the politics of american focus groups imho). For that reason it isnt important and we shouldnt draw many conclusions.
  - krapp 10y ago
    The Empire is meant to be fascistic, basically Nazism In Space, in broad strokes, owing to the pulp science fantasy nature of Star Wars (originally envisioned as a Flash Gordon reboot.) Beyond that, it's impossible to say that Star Wars universe does or doesn't subscribe to any particular political ideology because it encompasses a galaxy's worth of planets with their own particular ideologies, to whatever degree the franchise realizes them. I don't know exactly what the Jedi and Sith are... other than the Jedi are supposed to be Good and the Sith are supposed to be Bad. The Jedi have some kind of quasi-ascetic warrior monk bureaucracy that reminds me of what little I understand of what the Samurai might have become during the Edo period. The Sith are apparently just violent sociopaths. Although you could say the same about Star Trek, if you didn't focus so much on the Federation - the Federation is more or less explicitly Gene Roddenberry's vision of a communist utopia, but it also has the Romulans (a fascist military dictatorship), the Ferengi (capitalists,) etc.
alphonsegaston 10y ago
It has to be the grandest irony that Thiel dislikes Star Trek, when, in the show's spectaculive history, the future society emerges from the rubble of a eugenics-driven oligarchy that set off World War III. Heterodox Science Fiction indeed.
- kobeya 10y ago
  I don't get it.
trashtoss 10y ago
You'd think there'd be an appeal to being able to just say "Computer: syringe of young blood, body temperature." Perhaps it only works if you have to pay someone for it first.
- jstewartmobile 10y ago
  I'm guessing replicator blood lacks soul: I will set my face against the soul that hath eaten blood, and will cut him off from among his people; for the soul of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that maketh atonement for the soul. Therefore have I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall the stranger who sojourneth among you eat blood. [Leviticus 17:10-12] Thank you for being one of the few commentators to not get distracted by the sci-fi!
jackcosgrove 10y ago
Star Trek clearly has a communitarian, if not communist, economy. I would posit this as the left pole in sci-fi. Positing Star Wars as the capitalist right pole is not accurate though. The right pole in sci-fi is Dune, which is the middle ages in space. For anyone not familiar with the Duniverse, it is a feudal order in which computers have been banned by the single human religion, because in ages past artificial intelligence became sentient and enslaved humanity. Humanity rebelled and won its freedom, and chose to ban computers to avoid history repeating itself. To maintain their interplanetary civilization, humans approach the capabilities of computers using intense training and psychotropic drugs. Star Wars, on the other hand, is just a fantasy mishmash.
- subway 10y ago
  I've never taken the time to read/watch Dune, but this has certainly piqued my interest. Thanks
  - jackcosgrove 10y ago
    Don't bother watching either production.
    - DanCarvajal 10y ago
      Totally disagree, but I'm a David Lynch fan and even I will admit it's not actually a good movie. But if you've read the book you get a lot of what he was going for before people said "Dude, you can't have a four hour movie...." I find it a fascinating and enjoyable movie. The book is my single favorite book ever.
    - ericd 10y ago
      Random side note, but the documentary Jodorowsky's Dune, about a version that was never made, is excellent.
      - rbanffy 10y ago
        Maybe Netflix can get the rights and do a proper miniseries.
general_ai 10y ago
As someone who was born and raised in a communist country, I too "fear" communism, as well as its harbinger: socialism. Unless you're Norway (a tiny country with massive natural resources and an enormous sovereign wealth fund) that shit has been shown repeatedly not to work, and millions of people have died conclusively proving this point. No, thanks. Edit: folks, before you make fools of yourselves, _please_ read the textbook definition of what socialism actually is. Thanks.
- kwhitefoot 10y ago
  The wealth fund is enormous only in part because of the massive natural resources. The real trick is not pissing it away like other oil producing nations do. In fact oil is the only substantial natural resource that Norway has that most other countries don't. Forestry is not terribly profitable because of the terrain, most of the valuable minerals are in the north (and mostly on the Swedish side of the border), large scale hydro has been built out to close to the maximum possible already. Was your communist country really socialist before it became communist or is the word communist here simply shorthand for Soviet Russian style dictatorship imposed by an external power?
  - general_ai 10y ago
    By what "external power"? There's some evidence that Germans aided and financed the initial stages of Russian revolution, but its pretty weak, and its effect is unlikely to have been decisive. The revolution was largely a consequence of the war, weaker government, pissed off populace, and the fact that people didn't really know what they _really_ were signing up for. Now that several regimes have gone through the proces, we do very much know where these things end. Except for maybe the folks in their teens and mid-20s who don't study history and therefore might be doomed to eventually repeat it.
- vkou 10y ago
  ... Yes, just like millions of people are dying on the altar of democratic socialism in Canada, France, Germany, the United Kingdom, and in the United States (Social Security is socialism. Welfare is socialism. Food stamps are socialism. Medicaid is socialism.)
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
orik 10y ago
I think there's a much stronger overlap of Star Trek and the political beliefs of it's viewers than the overlap of Star Wars and and particular viewer (maybe in part because Star Wars is so much more popular, or maybe because the part of the world I live in or my experience with individuals.) Either way, it does not do well to look towards pieces of fictions for solutions to our real world problems. Of course, if we as a planet discovered advance civilizations on other planets, we would have to re-organize our entire political structure to deal with such threats. But that's not the case, and that's not the world we live in. ‘There’s something my dad made up which is he told me when I was little I was frustrated about rules in Movies and he said ‘How do you kill a Vampire?’ And I said ‘Stake through the heart, garlic, sunlight’ and my dad was like ‘No, kill a vampire however you want Vampire’s because don’t exist you can make up rules for any kind of thing you want’ - The Death and Return of Superman Although the visual arts can offer unique and compelling perspectives (Apocalypse Now, etc) perhaps we should strive to scrutinize their work the same way a persuasive piece of writing would be.
- tnecniv 10y ago
  > Either way, it does not do well to look towards pieces of fictions for solutions to our real world problems. Especially when the economic / political systems of the works are not even self-consistent and rely on non-existent technology (replicators).
UnpossibleJim 10y ago
While there is a singular society that is focused on in both Star Wars and Star Trek, neither is homogeneous or complete. No one would watch if either were, because struggle would not be an option. Star Trek has plenty if conflict, even within the Federation itself. (please note, I won't go very deep into the nerd pit that is opened by this article, but the spelunking is there for the brave). Lies and deception to gain control of the military power was a VERY prevalent theme for multiple episodes and movies of Star Trek, which washes away the thought of an egalitarian utopia brought about by replecators and a just government structure. The conflict with the Klingons and the Romulans can be arguably pointed at as a false conflict with the Federation in order to cement more military power and societal control by the generals of Star Fleet (depending on time lines). In Star Wars, the Jedi Order is overtly communist and sent out to help bring an end to conflict over "petty squabbles concerning money and power" in order to bring about peace and communication throughout the galaxy. Again, this is also pointed out to be an imbalance in the way of the Force as much as the greed and anger of the Dark Side. True harmony comes through a balance of all things. This seems to be the overwhelming message of both of these sci-fi gems. Conflict will always exist. It is with in ourselves to calm the conflict inside us and take a look around with true curiosity and empathy, replecators or no. Communist or Capitalist.
mxfh 10y ago
Star Wars is Feudalism not Capitalism. And we're likely heading into a neo-feudal corporate world.
- Arizhel 10y ago
  For a look at something resembling our future, read "Dune". Feudalism with constant warring between factions, corporations, wide-scale drug addiction, etc.
stcredzero 10y ago
In the Pellegrino's The Killing Star, an alien race decides to exterminate the human race, based in large part on watching old episodes of Star Trek. (Extermination of the human race happens on, like page 6 or something like that.)
gregpardo 10y ago
The fact that the Star Trek community is based on a united federation is really just a side part of the series. The main focus of the series is usually encounters with other species and how the crew comes together to solve puzzling problems. Star Trek is not a political statement... It just so happens that utilities like the replicator and the federation allow them to add to the setting of what a futuristic community might look like. Besides, on a a universal scale, the federation is a small group of the human species engaging in trade and communication with other species in a more capitalistic universe. Capitalism right now is for profit but in the future it could be for technology and knowledge.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

121 points by tsunamifury 10y ago

tyingq 10y ago

They don't touch on the other Star Trek society that has no need for money and materialism...the Borg.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
aaron-lebo 10y ago
What about Khan? According to the backstory revealed in the episode, Khan is one of a group of genetically engineered superhumans, bred to be free of the usual human mental and physical limitations, who were removed from power after the Eugenics Wars of the 1990s.[3] Khan had been both the most successful conqueror and the most benign ruler of the group, ruling more than a quarter of the Earth's area across Asia to the Middle East from 1992 to 1996 with a firm but generally peaceful hand until he was deposed. There's a lot of would be rulers practically mimicking that today. Isn't the big issue about how you get from a society with scarcity to one without? Nobody agrees how that should be done (or perhaps for some if it can), and without that agreement someone is going to have to force that from above and force that on to other people. Someone has to be the loser, whether it's the working class person in middle America or the Middle Eastern refugee. I guess Thiel is against that from above approach, though it's ironic that he should be one of the largest funders, drivers, and proponents of illiberal and undemocratic companies.
- Arizhel 10y ago
  What are you talking about? No one really has to "lose" much of anything in a post-scarcity society, because, by definition, there's no scarcity! Now in reality it isn't quite so simple, but remember we're talking about fictional future societies where many resources (esp. energy) simply are not scarce the way they are now, so this may be hard for a lot of people to grasp. So in that society, food, energy, material things are generally free or extremely cheap. The main thing that probably still will be scarce is real estate. So if you're a billionaire with a 700-acre compound in Hawaii, then in a socialist post-scarcity society, you're probably going to lose out eventually. But for everyone else, there's really no downside. Middle Eastern refugees will enjoy the same lifestyle as middle class middle Americans (and might not need to feel the need to leave the middle east at all; such a society wouldn't have problems with civil wars and unrest), and the latter will have a nicer lifestyle without having to slave away at some soul-sucking job and worrying about losing healthcare benefits. But neither of them is likely going to be able to own a whole tropical island and have an army of (human) servants.

arethuza 10y ago

Elon Musk should lend him a Culture novel... :-)

ben_w 10y ago
Thiel may blow a fuse if he realises quite how many Culture references Musk has been making over the years. :)
metaphorm 10y ago
this is a great idea. how can we get Thiel to read some Iain Banks?
- rbanffy 10y ago
  We could send him books.

mikestew 10y ago

I kind of skimmed the article, mainly because I can't be bothered to care about the topic, but I didn't see where Theil "fears" _Star Trek_. But let's run with that: why does Mr. Theil fear _Star Trek_? Because that world doesn't need Peter Theil. If you think Ayn Rand is an insightful novelist, then ST:NG probably isn't going to be your preferred brand of entertainment. But it seems to me the article misses the mark in that it assumes Theil to be a "tech guy". Meh, I dunno, I kind of view him as a "money guy" who happened to bet on some tech companies. It's a cherry-picked (by me) quote, but: "In 2011, for instance, he told George Packer that he did not consider the iPhone a technological breakthrough. 'Compare this with the Apollo space program'" The Apollo space program, which ended before most people were born (or thereabouts), affected our lives in a peripheral manner if at all. Tang, Velcro, and a big swinging "if we can put a man on the moon, we can put an ICBM on your capitol" dick to show for it. Umm, thanks, I guess. Too bad there's no real follow-through fifty years later. The "super-computer-in-your-pocket", OTOH, changed the way people live their lives (and, granted, not all for the better). I don't ask for directions, I don't have a land line, and any question I might have ("what octane fuel goes in this car?", "where's the fuse box on this thing?") can be answered instantly. So I guess I don't care which side Theil takes in the "Star Wars/Star Trek" nerd battle.

tyingq 10y ago
>I didn't see where Theil "fears" _Star Trek_. It was hard to find. Here's where they finally state their case: "What is anathema to Thiel in “Star Trek” is the notion, drawn from Isaac Asimov’s fiction, that the market is but a temporary solution to imbalances in supply and demand, and that technology and plenty will eventually make it obsolete" So, he "fears" that capitalism will go away...according the them anyway. They seem to source some of that thought from what they call his "Cato Essay", here: https://www.cato-unbound.org/2009/04/13/peter-thiel/education-libertarian https://www.cato-unbound.org/2009/04/13/peter-thiel/educatio...
- rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
  Only a wealthy capitalist could see a downside to their relative wealth being diminished as technology and trade ensures that all necessities for human life are provided as human rights. But I guess some middle class people always dream of being the one great king who isn't starving.

Houshalter 10y ago

Neither Star Wars or Star trek go into very much depth of how their societies actually work. Star Trek doesn't tell us how their economy is managed or their internal politics. Sure they have replicators, but their are still things that need to be done by people, and resources that can't be replicated. Star Wars says it's capitalist, but I don't believe it. In many of the scenes you see people doing jobs that could easily be done by droids. Even their wars are fought with droids - or manufactured humans that are treated like droids. Droids are generally intelligent and can basically do any job people can do. Why do they need people at all? Star trek has that problem too. How often do the characters ask the computer to do pretty complex tasks? Why do they need a crew of hundreds, when almost everything is automated? All science fiction paints a 20th century society with a pretty futuristic backdrop and props. But things like AI and replicators would radically change the way things work. And create a society very different than what we know. Quite possibly one without humans. What would really happen if any lunatic could replicate parts for WMDs? Or if robots that were really smarter than humans appeared?

teilo 10y ago
>Star Trek doesn't tell us how their economy is managed or their internal politics. True, but there is this much: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H5uPyU2oKE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H5uPyU2oKE Other references: http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Money http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Money
- jaggednad 10y ago
  Also, there's this in in episode 26 of Season 1 of the Next Generation, in which a group of people who were frozen and kept alive in the 20th century are found and unthawed on the Enterprise: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQQYbKT_rMg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQQYbKT_rMg
3pt14159 10y ago
What do more advanced societies generally do with less advanced societies that they don't need something from? They leave them alone and maybe come to visit once in a while. What does a sentient replicator robot care if a little boy just wants to whittle a bowl out of a piece of wood? It's kinda neat, and stories are interesting and the minds of the future will presumably have solve the security problem, or at least as much as MAD solves it, and the scarcity problem, at least as much as scarcity is a problem for most people. After that there is just discovery, enjoyment, merriment, world building, love. What do we do with our abundance of CPU cycles? We watch cat videos and text our friends. I kinda view it the same way if we can survive the next 100 years or so where things are little unstable.

hnhg 10y ago

I read the original interview and his comment seemed tongue-in-cheek and aware that it would court needless attention. I don't feel it warrants this level of scrutiny.

cgriswald 10y ago

I'm not sure how the economy of the Empire works, but I am pretty sure it's not a "libertarian fever dream" as suggested by the article. Most of the places in Star Wars are places not under the thumb of the Empire, and the closest place I can even see that isn't effectively a black market (like Mos Eisley) is Cloud City, which, of course, the government came in and shut down after promising it would allow it to operate freely. Where free trade does seem to operate (the Trade Federation) it leads to corruption and war. And let's not forget that Han Solo is a smuggler. He's in debt because the government caught him with contraband and had to lose it. Star Trek also features many other economies, including that of the Ferengi, which are extremely materialistic. This is the focus of many DS9 episodes. And even the Federation crew somehow get their hands on money to spend; money that mysteriously can't be replicated. (And, in DS9, back on Earth, Sisko's father makes honest-to-goodness actual food, while Jean-Luc has a vineyard.) Likewise, it's not clear how replicator use works; perhaps they have an allowance. The crew of the Enterprise barely use it, except for food. Their quarters are scarce. So either through monetary, social, or rule-based means, they limit themselves heavily compared to the average American today.

sandworm101 10y ago
Fever dream, but with oppressive taxation without representation. The dream exists only on the fringes. Outside the dusty cantenas it appeares a society in lockdown. That isnt libertarian but something closer to comicbook communism. I have trouble pinning the political system in star wars. It has changed several times as the movies have adapted to new audiances (the politics of american focus groups imho). For that reason it isnt important and we shouldnt draw many conclusions.
- krapp 10y ago
  The Empire is meant to be fascistic, basically Nazism In Space, in broad strokes, owing to the pulp science fantasy nature of Star Wars (originally envisioned as a Flash Gordon reboot.) Beyond that, it's impossible to say that Star Wars universe does or doesn't subscribe to any particular political ideology because it encompasses a galaxy's worth of planets with their own particular ideologies, to whatever degree the franchise realizes them. I don't know exactly what the Jedi and Sith are... other than the Jedi are supposed to be Good and the Sith are supposed to be Bad. The Jedi have some kind of quasi-ascetic warrior monk bureaucracy that reminds me of what little I understand of what the Samurai might have become during the Edo period. The Sith are apparently just violent sociopaths. Although you could say the same about Star Trek, if you didn't focus so much on the Federation - the Federation is more or less explicitly Gene Roddenberry's vision of a communist utopia, but it also has the Romulans (a fascist military dictatorship), the Ferengi (capitalists,) etc.

alphonsegaston 10y ago

It has to be the grandest irony that Thiel dislikes Star Trek, when, in the show's spectaculive history, the future society emerges from the rubble of a eugenics-driven oligarchy that set off World War III. Heterodox Science Fiction indeed.

kobeya 10y ago
I don't get it.

trashtoss 10y ago

You'd think there'd be an appeal to being able to just say "Computer: syringe of young blood, body temperature." Perhaps it only works if you have to pay someone for it first.

jstewartmobile 10y ago
I'm guessing replicator blood lacks soul: I will set my face against the soul that hath eaten blood, and will cut him off from among his people; for the soul of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that maketh atonement for the soul. Therefore have I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall the stranger who sojourneth among you eat blood. [Leviticus 17:10-12] Thank you for being one of the few commentators to not get distracted by the sci-fi!

jackcosgrove 10y ago

Star Trek clearly has a communitarian, if not communist, economy. I would posit this as the left pole in sci-fi. Positing Star Wars as the capitalist right pole is not accurate though. The right pole in sci-fi is Dune, which is the middle ages in space. For anyone not familiar with the Duniverse, it is a feudal order in which computers have been banned by the single human religion, because in ages past artificial intelligence became sentient and enslaved humanity. Humanity rebelled and won its freedom, and chose to ban computers to avoid history repeating itself. To maintain their interplanetary civilization, humans approach the capabilities of computers using intense training and psychotropic drugs. Star Wars, on the other hand, is just a fantasy mishmash.

subway 10y ago
I've never taken the time to read/watch Dune, but this has certainly piqued my interest. Thanks
- jackcosgrove 10y ago
  Don't bother watching either production.
  - DanCarvajal 10y ago
    Totally disagree, but I'm a David Lynch fan and even I will admit it's not actually a good movie. But if you've read the book you get a lot of what he was going for before people said "Dude, you can't have a four hour movie...." I find it a fascinating and enjoyable movie. The book is my single favorite book ever.
  - ericd 10y ago
    Random side note, but the documentary Jodorowsky's Dune, about a version that was never made, is excellent.
    - rbanffy 10y ago
      Maybe Netflix can get the rights and do a proper miniseries.

general_ai 10y ago

As someone who was born and raised in a communist country, I too "fear" communism, as well as its harbinger: socialism. Unless you're Norway (a tiny country with massive natural resources and an enormous sovereign wealth fund) that shit has been shown repeatedly not to work, and millions of people have died conclusively proving this point. No, thanks. Edit: folks, before you make fools of yourselves, _please_ read the textbook definition of what socialism actually is. Thanks.

kwhitefoot 10y ago
The wealth fund is enormous only in part because of the massive natural resources. The real trick is not pissing it away like other oil producing nations do. In fact oil is the only substantial natural resource that Norway has that most other countries don't. Forestry is not terribly profitable because of the terrain, most of the valuable minerals are in the north (and mostly on the Swedish side of the border), large scale hydro has been built out to close to the maximum possible already. Was your communist country really socialist before it became communist or is the word communist here simply shorthand for Soviet Russian style dictatorship imposed by an external power?
- general_ai 10y ago
  By what "external power"? There's some evidence that Germans aided and financed the initial stages of Russian revolution, but its pretty weak, and its effect is unlikely to have been decisive. The revolution was largely a consequence of the war, weaker government, pissed off populace, and the fact that people didn't really know what they _really_ were signing up for. Now that several regimes have gone through the proces, we do very much know where these things end. Except for maybe the folks in their teens and mid-20s who don't study history and therefore might be doomed to eventually repeat it.
vkou 10y ago
... Yes, just like millions of people are dying on the altar of democratic socialism in Canada, France, Germany, the United Kingdom, and in the United States (Social Security is socialism. Welfare is socialism. Food stamps are socialism. Medicaid is socialism.)

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

orik 10y ago

I think there's a much stronger overlap of Star Trek and the political beliefs of it's viewers than the overlap of Star Wars and and particular viewer (maybe in part because Star Wars is so much more popular, or maybe because the part of the world I live in or my experience with individuals.) Either way, it does not do well to look towards pieces of fictions for solutions to our real world problems. Of course, if we as a planet discovered advance civilizations on other planets, we would have to re-organize our entire political structure to deal with such threats. But that's not the case, and that's not the world we live in. ‘There’s something my dad made up which is he told me when I was little I was frustrated about rules in Movies and he said ‘How do you kill a Vampire?’ And I said ‘Stake through the heart, garlic, sunlight’ and my dad was like ‘No, kill a vampire however you want Vampire’s because don’t exist you can make up rules for any kind of thing you want’ - The Death and Return of Superman Although the visual arts can offer unique and compelling perspectives (Apocalypse Now, etc) perhaps we should strive to scrutinize their work the same way a persuasive piece of writing would be.

tnecniv 10y ago
> Either way, it does not do well to look towards pieces of fictions for solutions to our real world problems. Especially when the economic / political systems of the works are not even self-consistent and rely on non-existent technology (replicators).

UnpossibleJim 10y ago

While there is a singular society that is focused on in both Star Wars and Star Trek, neither is homogeneous or complete. No one would watch if either were, because struggle would not be an option. Star Trek has plenty if conflict, even within the Federation itself. (please note, I won't go very deep into the nerd pit that is opened by this article, but the spelunking is there for the brave). Lies and deception to gain control of the military power was a VERY prevalent theme for multiple episodes and movies of Star Trek, which washes away the thought of an egalitarian utopia brought about by replecators and a just government structure. The conflict with the Klingons and the Romulans can be arguably pointed at as a false conflict with the Federation in order to cement more military power and societal control by the generals of Star Fleet (depending on time lines). In Star Wars, the Jedi Order is overtly communist and sent out to help bring an end to conflict over "petty squabbles concerning money and power" in order to bring about peace and communication throughout the galaxy. Again, this is also pointed out to be an imbalance in the way of the Force as much as the greed and anger of the Dark Side. True harmony comes through a balance of all things. This seems to be the overwhelming message of both of these sci-fi gems. Conflict will always exist. It is with in ourselves to calm the conflict inside us and take a look around with true curiosity and empathy, replecators or no. Communist or Capitalist.

mxfh 10y ago

Star Wars is Feudalism not Capitalism. And we're likely heading into a neo-feudal corporate world.

Arizhel 10y ago
For a look at something resembling our future, read "Dune". Feudalism with constant warring between factions, corporations, wide-scale drug addiction, etc.

stcredzero 10y ago

In the Pellegrino's The Killing Star, an alien race decides to exterminate the human race, based in large part on watching old episodes of Star Trek. (Extermination of the human race happens on, like page 6 or something like that.)

gregpardo 10y ago

The fact that the Star Trek community is based on a united federation is really just a side part of the series. The main focus of the series is usually encounters with other species and how the crew comes together to solve puzzling problems. Star Trek is not a political statement... It just so happens that utilities like the replicator and the federation allow them to add to the setting of what a futuristic community might look like. Besides, on a a universal scale, the federation is a small group of the human species engaging in trade and communication with other species in a more capitalistic universe. Capitalism right now is for profit but in the future it could be for technology and knowledge.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]