5 ms·

I don't think this particular model is all that great, but I applaud maxklein's willingness to work with a distributed/remote team. [ rant begins ] For peopl

I don't think this particular model is all that great, but I applaud maxklein's willingness to work with a distributed/remote team. [ rant begins ] For people who (for whatever reason) can't move to Silicon Valley, it is excruciating to watch all the cool startups in the USA and be stuck with an outsourced enterprise maintenance crap job because that is all that is available locally. It sucks when you read a startup dev job description, know that you'd be great at it and the very last sentence is "you should be a US resident. No remote working". I understand why people would want that, but it sucks anyway :-P. I am luckier than most developers in Bangalore - I work on Machine Learning/AI projects, which is where my expertise lies - but working alone is a bit of a drag and if I could work for (just as an example) ReThinkDB without having to move to the USA, I would apply in flash. Working with some of the people I "met" on HN would be awesome. I would happily take a paycut. Once my present project ends, I'll probably do something like this. [ rant ends ] Nutshell: I am very appreciative of any and all attempts by HN folks to work distributed/remote. Go @maxklein!

phaedrus 16y ago
I share your frustration. Although I do live in the USA, not all regions of the USA are equally prosperous. Though patriotism leads people here to shut their eyes to it, the economy in the state I live in has more in common with third world countries than first world. Yet my wife refuses to move to any other state, so I'm forced to watch countless opportunities to advance my career slide by because they don't allow you to work remotely, while I plod along in a job much less technically interesting than what I'm capable of. It's not a case of fewer engineers competing for jobs at a smaller number of technology companies, it's a case of fewer engineers and exactly zero technology companies. It doesn't matter if there are also fewer skilled/educated workers to compete against, it's still division by zero.
- rortian 16y ago
  1. Please show me a state with a per capta gdp that approaches one from the third world. 2. Your wife may be forcing you to stay in state to be with her. Either celebrate your marriage and don't bitch about how it's bringing you down or move on.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
  - derefr 16y ago
    It's not a dichotomy; you could equally tell his wife to "celebrate their marriage and not bitch" about moving to somewhere with more opportunities. You should not think about someone's happiness, that does not also think about your own.
    - rortian 16y ago
      I think you making a totally fair point about the symmetry of the situation. However, I think his attitude (and by symmetry probably hers too) is an unhealthy one. He can always think, "were it not for her attitude I, errr we, could be more successful". This is quite a negative thought to hold in your head with someone that you should have an amicable rapport with. >You should not think about someone's happiness, that does not also think about your own. I guess you can live by that, but I certainly don't like the dynamics of this towards the limit. If somebody is hurting I don't mind trying to say something. Suffering isn't cool.
      - doki_pen 16y ago
        Are you married? There is much more to marriage then love. It is a legally binding contract and there are serious consequences for breaking it. Not to mention the social and emotional consequences. There are usually children involved.
        jdunck 16y ago
        If that is your line of reasoning for staying married, it's an unhealthy situation, probably not good for the kids, etc. People in such situations should focus on communication and progress, possibly with the help of a therapist. Or end the marriage. But plodding along blaming your spouse for your terrible lot in life is no way to raise a family (or save some money). I've been married 10 years. It's up and down, but in the end, it's what you make of it.
- aaronblohowiak 16y ago
  WV ? Get involved in open-source, it is the best way to be apart of things you wouldn't otherwise have access to as the requirements are simple: 1) show up (virtually), 2) be polite. You seem to have the inclination to be the second. id like to encourage you to do the first.
- fnid2 16y ago
  More like division into zero right? If it was by zero, then there'd be no engineers and an undefined supply of jobs. But more to the point, there are lots of ways to be technically engaged. Elance, guru.com, hireacoder kind of places need technical people and they don't care where you are. The startup phase into a life style like that (this), can be long and arduous, but also something you can do in your spare time. Point is, if you want to be in a rural area and still have your fingers in technical stuff, there are avenues to that -- the internet. That's the beauty of the internet. You can do almost anything technical from anywhere, like the main post to this thread... Lots of people, myself included, do. When I talk to my clients/customers, they're always like, "Where are you now?" It's awesome.
  - owensmartin 16y ago
    Arg. It's not division by zero, it's zero work divided by a finite number of workers. Nor is it an undefined supply of jobs-- should you need the quantity "workers per unit work", then, finally, you'd have an undefined quantity.
  - phaedrus 16y ago
    I was calculating number of engineering job applicants divided by the number of places to work. That is, supposing there were 100 people and 10 companies, or 20 people and 2 companies, that's still the same ratio of 10 engineers employed per company as you think smaller. But when you scale down far enough, you reach a point where there are zero companies in the sector, yet there are still non-zero number of people wishing to have that kind of job if they could. So you're dividing a nonzero number of people across zero opportunities, and the result is undefined. In theory, I could do almost anything technical from anywhere, and that's what gives me hope. But society doesn't always change as fast as technology could enable it to - I have yet to find a company actually willing to let me work completely remotely, even though programming or circuit design work could be done that way. But that's why I am involved in a startup as a side job, and I hope one day we'll be able to employ 100% of our workforce 100% remotely, because there are many capable people living in backwater places. That's the interesting thing about dividing by zero - introducing an undefined result breaks the rules of the system.
acgourley 16y ago
Is there a job site targeted at skilled international workers like you? How do you look for work, and how would people find you?
- plinkplonk 16y ago
  "Is there a job site targeted at skilled international workers like you?" As far as I know there isn't. Most people are (rightly) trying to outsource just the grungy bits for which they (rightly) seek low cost folks through elance etc. "How do you look for work, and how would people find you?" I can't answer the general question but as for me specifically, I have a bit of a unique skillset (AI/ML/compilers, reasonably strong math skills), which, while not in wide demand in Bangalore/India is sufficiently compelling for the few people who do want it (e.g some folks in the local Defence Research labs, telecom companies, financial trading folks and so on). More importantly, over the years I've made a bit of a reputation for straight dealing and delivery on time/below budget. I have never actively looked for work since I left ThoughtWorks (6 years ago now , yikes! where did the time go?). And I left TW because I was tired of working on enterprise sw. The company and my co workers were great - the work was terrible. I have enough work for the next five years. Research + coding projects tend to be like that. I constantly turn down projects. So far so good. The problem is that the "rare skillset" bit cuts both ways - I've been working alone for the last 6 years and would love to work with great people (ideally much smarter than I am) again. That part doesn't seem to work out so well hereabouts. There are some interesting startups coming up but still very early days here. Bradford Cross (of FlightCaster) and I (along with a couple of others) wrote about this at http://measuringmeasures.blogspot.com/2010/02/globalization-of-startups.html http://measuringmeasures.blogspot.com/2010/02/globalization-... ) Nutshell: As of now I get work via word of mouth from satisfied customers. I don't use any websites etc.
- kixxauth 16y ago
  OK, at the risk of getting called out for spamming I can't help but interject here. I am the founder of a company who's goal is to create an environment where remote contributors are the company. I have one other co-founder and a few more interested in it. None of us live in the same city. I really want to get at least one more really talented person as a co-founder. Please have a look: http://www.fireworksproject.com/pages/extraordinary_people.html http://www.fireworksproject.com/pages/extraordinary_people.h...
bjelkeman-again 16y ago
We have a small distributed development team. We are three people in Sweden, two in London UK, two in San Francisco US. (We also have five non-developers, in London and the Netherlands.) We are not looking to add any further developers outside of these three locations at the moment, as we often have team meetings via Skype and it is a quite hard to keep organized with three time zones already. Especially with the time difference between EU and CA. I spent a couple of months in Asia this winter and it really didn't become any easier. I suppose it all depends on how the team is used to work and communicate, but I do wish we could have everyone in the same office more often. We have a team meeting in the same location once every six months for 4-5 days, but you can only achieve so much in a few days. With everyone either having partners, children or both to take into account it isn't always so easy to fit everything together.
- plinkplonk 16y ago
  "We are not looking to add any further developers outside of these three locations at the moment, as we often have team meetings via Skype and it is a quite hard to keep organized with three time zones already. Especially with the time difference between EU and CA. I spent a couple of months in Asia this winter and it really didn't become any easier." This is completely fair and rational. You shouldn't have to make any irrational sacrifices to work with people in far away places. The way I look at this is - I am not (yet, perceived as,) good enough for people to want to work with me in spite of the distance/time difference etc. Lars Bak (for example) [1] is so good that he can work from somewhere in Europe and the rest of the team (and Google) make whatever compromises are necessary. In my opinion the best way to overcome this is to become (and be seen to be) way better than the average. "Be so good they can't ignore you" is good advice. So, back to work! [1] From Wikipedia "In 2004, Bak was hired by Google to work on what was to become the Chrome browser. He did not return to the United States, preferring to work in Denmark where his daughters were also receiving their education. With a team of 12 engineers, Bak has been coordinating the development of the JavaScript machine for Chrome which he has code-named V8, to mirror the powerful automobile engine"
- phaedrus 16y ago
  Is it difficult to get the paperwork and permits in order to employ people from multiple countries? I've often wondered how that works.
alain94040 16y ago
For people who can't move to Silicon Valley, it is excruciating to watch all the cool startups in the USA and be stuck Guess what, that was exactly the genesis of our startup. Startups are bound to go virtual. The Silicon Valley model should become accessible to anyone with an Internet connection, from anywhere in the world. So we did http://fairsoftware.net http://fairsoftware.net. The only problem, is the imbalance between people with ideas and people willing to implement them. Working with some of the people I "met" on HN would be awesome. Totally agreed. That's why we even considered highlighting people from the HN community on our site, kind of like adding a badge of quality/honor. Who knows, we may eventually do it. Because trust and shared passion is so important to starting something together.

phaedrus 16y ago

I share your frustration. Although I do live in the USA, not all regions of the USA are equally prosperous. Though patriotism leads people here to shut their eyes to it, the economy in the state I live in has more in common with third world countries than first world. Yet my wife refuses to move to any other state, so I'm forced to watch countless opportunities to advance my career slide by because they don't allow you to work remotely, while I plod along in a job much less technically interesting than what I'm capable of. It's not a case of fewer engineers competing for jobs at a smaller number of technology companies, it's a case of fewer engineers and exactly zero technology companies. It doesn't matter if there are also fewer skilled/educated workers to compete against, it's still division by zero.

rortian 16y ago
1. Please show me a state with a per capta gdp that approaches one from the third world. 2. Your wife may be forcing you to stay in state to be with her. Either celebrate your marriage and don't bitch about how it's bringing you down or move on.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- derefr 16y ago
  It's not a dichotomy; you could equally tell his wife to "celebrate their marriage and not bitch" about moving to somewhere with more opportunities. You should not think about someone's happiness, that does not also think about your own.
  - rortian 16y ago
    I think you making a totally fair point about the symmetry of the situation. However, I think his attitude (and by symmetry probably hers too) is an unhealthy one. He can always think, "were it not for her attitude I, errr we, could be more successful". This is quite a negative thought to hold in your head with someone that you should have an amicable rapport with. >You should not think about someone's happiness, that does not also think about your own. I guess you can live by that, but I certainly don't like the dynamics of this towards the limit. If somebody is hurting I don't mind trying to say something. Suffering isn't cool.
    - doki_pen 16y ago
      Are you married? There is much more to marriage then love. It is a legally binding contract and there are serious consequences for breaking it. Not to mention the social and emotional consequences. There are usually children involved.
      - jdunck 16y ago
        If that is your line of reasoning for staying married, it's an unhealthy situation, probably not good for the kids, etc. People in such situations should focus on communication and progress, possibly with the help of a therapist. Or end the marriage. But plodding along blaming your spouse for your terrible lot in life is no way to raise a family (or save some money). I've been married 10 years. It's up and down, but in the end, it's what you make of it.
aaronblohowiak 16y ago
WV ? Get involved in open-source, it is the best way to be apart of things you wouldn't otherwise have access to as the requirements are simple: 1) show up (virtually), 2) be polite. You seem to have the inclination to be the second. id like to encourage you to do the first.
fnid2 16y ago
More like division into zero right? If it was by zero, then there'd be no engineers and an undefined supply of jobs. But more to the point, there are lots of ways to be technically engaged. Elance, guru.com, hireacoder kind of places need technical people and they don't care where you are. The startup phase into a life style like that (this), can be long and arduous, but also something you can do in your spare time. Point is, if you want to be in a rural area and still have your fingers in technical stuff, there are avenues to that -- the internet. That's the beauty of the internet. You can do almost anything technical from anywhere, like the main post to this thread... Lots of people, myself included, do. When I talk to my clients/customers, they're always like, "Where are you now?" It's awesome.
- owensmartin 16y ago
  Arg. It's not division by zero, it's zero work divided by a finite number of workers. Nor is it an undefined supply of jobs-- should you need the quantity "workers per unit work", then, finally, you'd have an undefined quantity.
- phaedrus 16y ago
  I was calculating number of engineering job applicants divided by the number of places to work. That is, supposing there were 100 people and 10 companies, or 20 people and 2 companies, that's still the same ratio of 10 engineers employed per company as you think smaller. But when you scale down far enough, you reach a point where there are zero companies in the sector, yet there are still non-zero number of people wishing to have that kind of job if they could. So you're dividing a nonzero number of people across zero opportunities, and the result is undefined. In theory, I could do almost anything technical from anywhere, and that's what gives me hope. But society doesn't always change as fast as technology could enable it to - I have yet to find a company actually willing to let me work completely remotely, even though programming or circuit design work could be done that way. But that's why I am involved in a startup as a side job, and I hope one day we'll be able to employ 100% of our workforce 100% remotely, because there are many capable people living in backwater places. That's the interesting thing about dividing by zero - introducing an undefined result breaks the rules of the system.

acgourley 16y ago

Is there a job site targeted at skilled international workers like you? How do you look for work, and how would people find you?

plinkplonk 16y ago
"Is there a job site targeted at skilled international workers like you?" As far as I know there isn't. Most people are (rightly) trying to outsource just the grungy bits for which they (rightly) seek low cost folks through elance etc. "How do you look for work, and how would people find you?" I can't answer the general question but as for me specifically, I have a bit of a unique skillset (AI/ML/compilers, reasonably strong math skills), which, while not in wide demand in Bangalore/India is sufficiently compelling for the few people who do want it (e.g some folks in the local Defence Research labs, telecom companies, financial trading folks and so on). More importantly, over the years I've made a bit of a reputation for straight dealing and delivery on time/below budget. I have never actively looked for work since I left ThoughtWorks (6 years ago now , yikes! where did the time go?). And I left TW because I was tired of working on enterprise sw. The company and my co workers were great - the work was terrible. I have enough work for the next five years. Research + coding projects tend to be like that. I constantly turn down projects. So far so good. The problem is that the "rare skillset" bit cuts both ways - I've been working alone for the last 6 years and would love to work with great people (ideally much smarter than I am) again. That part doesn't seem to work out so well hereabouts. There are some interesting startups coming up but still very early days here. Bradford Cross (of FlightCaster) and I (along with a couple of others) wrote about this at http://measuringmeasures.blogspot.com/2010/02/globalization-of-startups.html http://measuringmeasures.blogspot.com/2010/02/globalization-... ) Nutshell: As of now I get work via word of mouth from satisfied customers. I don't use any websites etc.
kixxauth 16y ago
OK, at the risk of getting called out for spamming I can't help but interject here. I am the founder of a company who's goal is to create an environment where remote contributors are the company. I have one other co-founder and a few more interested in it. None of us live in the same city. I really want to get at least one more really talented person as a co-founder. Please have a look: http://www.fireworksproject.com/pages/extraordinary_people.html http://www.fireworksproject.com/pages/extraordinary_people.h...

bjelkeman-again 16y ago

We have a small distributed development team. We are three people in Sweden, two in London UK, two in San Francisco US. (We also have five non-developers, in London and the Netherlands.) We are not looking to add any further developers outside of these three locations at the moment, as we often have team meetings via Skype and it is a quite hard to keep organized with three time zones already. Especially with the time difference between EU and CA. I spent a couple of months in Asia this winter and it really didn't become any easier. I suppose it all depends on how the team is used to work and communicate, but I do wish we could have everyone in the same office more often. We have a team meeting in the same location once every six months for 4-5 days, but you can only achieve so much in a few days. With everyone either having partners, children or both to take into account it isn't always so easy to fit everything together.

plinkplonk 16y ago
"We are not looking to add any further developers outside of these three locations at the moment, as we often have team meetings via Skype and it is a quite hard to keep organized with three time zones already. Especially with the time difference between EU and CA. I spent a couple of months in Asia this winter and it really didn't become any easier." This is completely fair and rational. You shouldn't have to make any irrational sacrifices to work with people in far away places. The way I look at this is - I am not (yet, perceived as,) good enough for people to want to work with me in spite of the distance/time difference etc. Lars Bak (for example) [1] is so good that he can work from somewhere in Europe and the rest of the team (and Google) make whatever compromises are necessary. In my opinion the best way to overcome this is to become (and be seen to be) way better than the average. "Be so good they can't ignore you" is good advice. So, back to work! [1] From Wikipedia "In 2004, Bak was hired by Google to work on what was to become the Chrome browser. He did not return to the United States, preferring to work in Denmark where his daughters were also receiving their education. With a team of 12 engineers, Bak has been coordinating the development of the JavaScript machine for Chrome which he has code-named V8, to mirror the powerful automobile engine"
phaedrus 16y ago
Is it difficult to get the paperwork and permits in order to employ people from multiple countries? I've often wondered how that works.

alain94040 16y ago

For people who can't move to Silicon Valley, it is excruciating to watch all the cool startups in the USA and be stuck Guess what, that was exactly the genesis of our startup. Startups are bound to go virtual. The Silicon Valley model should become accessible to anyone with an Internet connection, from anywhere in the world. So we did http://fairsoftware.net http://fairsoftware.net. The only problem, is the imbalance between people with ideas and people willing to implement them. Working with some of the people I "met" on HN would be awesome. Totally agreed. That's why we even considered highlighting people from the HN community on our site, kind of like adding a badge of quality/honor. Who knows, we may eventually do it. Because trust and shared passion is so important to starting something together.