9 ms·

Dispute at Harvard leads to a restraining order against a prominent scientist

70 points by georgecmu 10y ago

hprotagonist 10y ago
this is a horrifyingly ugly mess up one side and down the other. nobody comes out of this looking good.
- aaron-lebo 10y ago
  I dunno, what did German do to warrant the way he was treated? Showing up in the middle of the night and forcing him to a mental health facility against his will? Harvard investigators taking his writings? People believing he could be spiking their coffee with poison? It just sounds bizarre and German seems to be the real victim.
  - wyldfire 10y ago
    It's extremely difficult to know who's account to trust. But it seems likely that both sides made missteps. Committing him is ludicrous. To me, it sounds like German may have set off this bitter battle and while he might not have mental health problems, he doesn't sound like a net positive team member.
    - apathy 10y ago
      Apparently the judge did not see that as a reason to prevent him from finishing his work and delivering evidence one way or the other (maybe he's awesome and his work will show this, maybe he sucks and his work will show this). "Team science" is actively penalized, just so you know. You're either a rock star PI with 5 R01s and an indentured servant "research professor" to handle actual work, or you're nobody. It is, and always has been, all about the money -- those sweet, sweet indirects from NIH grants, and the endowments from gullible old rich people. Rubin sounds like an asshole, exactly the sort of PI that is selected for at many top-tier institutions. If he's really clever he'll "help" German GTFO of his lab and then write some coded instructions in recommendation letters ("if you've any questions, please call me at 617-867-5309"). And then things can go back to normal, hopefully with Rubin being more cautious and/or less vindictive the next time around.
    - yardie 10y ago
      If net positive team member means go along to get along then you are right. He had questions about the integrity of the research data and reported that to the ethics board. For this his PI and team members branded him as crazy, going so far as to get him committed. If you suspect someone is tampering with your research you review the access logs or, better yet, put a camera on it. You don't spread a rumor that so and so is crazy and watch your coffee mugs because you don't know what crazy they might do. I believe the judge made the correct ruling. It's unfortunate for the lab and researchers that care caught in the middle.
  - linuxkerneldev 10y ago
    > It just sounds bizarre and German seems to be the real victim. I have no idea since both stories seem plausible. That said, this portion stood out to me: " In January 2016, a postdoctoral researcher reported that German asked her to perform a tedious task, which she believed was disrespectful, leading to a dispute. German was “red in the face and shaking with rage,” she said in her sworn statement. " Reading the docket NO. 1681CV01640 shows: " The Lab Manager, LaLonde, who would have seen German daily (until May 21, 2016), described plaintiff as "odd sometimes in his behavior, but nothing requiring immediate action, no danger to himself or anyone." " " how they should treat him better and how he deserves things other people should not have. This behavior has lasted for a while. " That makes me question exactly who is the real victim. There doesn't seem to be enough evidence to know for sure. I've seen both types of things. I've seen advisors sabotage their pupils. I've seen pupils blame their advisors when things didn't go their way. I'm sure we've all heard how Robert Openheimer tried to poison his tutor at Cambridge. Unrelated, but still worth mentioning is also a suspicious suicide of a former lover of his. Openheimer got out of trouble, despite the attempted murder because of his parents influence at Cambridge. It is interesting that this article mentions German was with his parents as well. That swayed me a bit against believing that German was the real victim.
    - LanceH 10y ago
      The bar for dragging someone away by force for potential involuntary commitment is pretty damn high. It's way above making an appointment with a psychiatrist and moving further if he skips the appointment.
      - mzs 10y ago
        It depends on where you live to some extent, but it goes like this where I live (I know cause it happened just like this). A (in this case well-meaning good) kid calls the police saying your kid is suicidal. The police and paramedics show-up to your house. You and your kid say all is fine, SI has passed but paramedics say a LCSW needs to make the call, police agree. They strap your kid to a stretcher and go to hospital. There you learn that a social worker cannot make the call unless your kid is sure to not be in an altered state (like say high on drugs), so you need for a nurse to draw blood and wait for results. A doctor looks at the test results showing no substances and calls for the LCSW. A social worker shows-up speaking to you and your kid separately. The social worker now needs to consult a psychologist and the doctor on call. The doctor on call discharges your kid from the ER. Clearly this can be abused, but I'm happy it's the way it is.
  - jessriedel 10y ago
    > retaliation prompted by German’s allegation of scientific misconduct against Rubin and two of his students. (The allegation was later dismissed.) Allegations of academic misconduct can be a serious, career-ending thing, even if they are dismissed. If German did this maliciously, or even just negligently, Rubin might have been very justly incensed (but getting someone committed of course is completely unjustified).
jbmorgado 10y ago
Well, this German guy seems to be a extremely unpleasant person to work with. I'm not sure if it's a problem with education or a problem with reduced authority but I wouldn't see these kind of issues some years ago. I just can't tell if it was because people in the past knew how to behave themselves when in a team or if it was because the PI's had more leeway to get rid of people like German. Normal people, specially when they have no option but to work in a team, can reach a common ground, and from the article, the PI tried in several meetings to appease the issues and reach that common understanding. I do see that the PI was also not in the right by sending the mental staff to pick up German in the middle of the night, but that seems to happen after more than one year of trying to solve the conflict with the guy. All in all, it's quite sad to see a good research team being hurt, because some guy doesn't know how to behave around other people and to see the higher authorities side with the person that started the problems just to look politically correct and go against the "installed power". It's my belief that in some years from now, when Universities start getting behind in research due these kind of actions, that competition will get into play again and this nonsense will stop.
- 1_2__3 10y ago
  That you're trying to tie this in with SJWs and such is just sickening. Not every dispute boils down to entitlement, and there's no evidence of it here. Just smart people differing opinion and one side taking it too far. You can disagree all you want but I'll go with the judge who got all the facts.
  - jbmorgado 10y ago
    No, German doesn't fit in the category of smart people. German clearly has major socializing problems. He his certainly not "smart" when it comes to social relations and even if what happened to him was excessive (like I said it was before) he is still not fit to work in a team. Let's remember that he had problems with other people inside the team, not only with the PI.
    - Avenger42 10y ago
supahfly_remix 10y ago
FWIW, 30.5 m is 100 ft which explains the unusual number.
- phaemon 10y ago
  That false precision really bugs me. It's obviously not exactly 100 feet - no-one is ever going to get a measuring tape and check it - so 30m is a much better unit conversion!
  - woliveirajr 10y ago
    I usually see it the other way round. When a movie is in US units and gets translated to literal values, like 16 km, 32 km, and so on.... when it's obvious that it doesn't matter.
  - bostonpete 10y ago
    They should have just said something like "100 feet (about 30m)", since that's what the actual court order is. I get that a science-oriented publication would have a convention of converting to MKS units, but in this case I think it was excessive.
    - Bartweiss 10y ago
      Broadly, I think it's inappropriate to convert when the specification is tied to units like this. For a wild hypothetical, imagine the definition of the foot was increased by 10%. The country would burn, of course, but this restraining order would probably expand with the change. If you're measuring a fact about the world, convert as you will. But if you're "creating" a fact like the court is, that should probably be reported in the original terms.
      - manarth 10y ago
        The definition of "a foot" was only agreed relatively recently: it wasn't all that long ago that countries differed on their definition. That difference in measuring systems (an Amsterdam foot was 11 inches, a Swedish foot was 12 inches) was attributed as one of the causes of the sinking of the Vasa [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasa_(ship) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasa_(ship)
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
apathy 10y ago
This is awesome. The way that (often foreign, often on J1 or H1B or student visa) students are treated in major labs is often horrible. If this destroys Rubin's lab, so much the better. Maybe he can serve as a warning to other PIs.
- devoply 10y ago
  Yes this sort of behavior is common. One of my dad's friends was doing his PhD as an immigrant in the 90s in the US and his professor did something similar to him. Had the police called and accused him of interfering with other people's experiments due to some small dispute that had nothing do with the lab. This is common fare behavior in the US research establishment against immigrants. Another friend ended up getting electroconvulsive therapy mostly as a result of dealing with a bad advisor, ending up in the hospital like this guy, and having the shrinks diagnose him with depression, etc. He had no family, they gave him ECD despite the fact that he did not want ECD on the recommendation of the shrinks, his personality changed significantly after that.
  - apathy 10y ago
    I heard it was "worse" way "back then" but I had no idea how much worse. Without regulations and scrutiny, competitive people will push the envelope on how bad they can abuse others and for how little money. Gotta push back.
- brd529 10y ago
  I'm more saddened than anything. Rubin's lab is dedicated to studying Spinal Muscular Atrophy - the leading cause of infant death in the USA. My cousin died of SMA and it was absolutely devastating for my aunt and uncle. If Rubin's lab is destroyed by this, even if justified, it is a setback for SMA research. I wouldn't call it awesome.
  - AnimalMuppet 10y ago
    If (note well that "if") Rubin's lab is fabricating data, is it still a setback for SMA research if Rubin's lab is destroyed? Or is the fabricating data already the setback for SMA research, and removing the fabricator is... maybe not a step forward, but at least stopping stepping back?
iaw 10y ago
Wow, this is an excellent example of unbiased journalism.
quasse 10y ago
"Often, a person accused of misconduct will try to “isolate, humiliate, and terminate” the whistleblower, says Patrick Burns ... But he’s never seen a case involving a forced mental exam." Unfortunately this is certainly not the first time this exact tactic has been used. Adiran Schoolcraft was held against his will in a psychiatric facility for 6 days after exposing corruption in the NYPD. [1] https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/414/right-to-remain-silent https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/414/... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Schoolcraft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Schoolcraft

70 points by georgecmu 10y ago

hprotagonist 10y ago

this is a horrifyingly ugly mess up one side and down the other. nobody comes out of this looking good.

aaron-lebo 10y ago
I dunno, what did German do to warrant the way he was treated? Showing up in the middle of the night and forcing him to a mental health facility against his will? Harvard investigators taking his writings? People believing he could be spiking their coffee with poison? It just sounds bizarre and German seems to be the real victim.
- wyldfire 10y ago
  It's extremely difficult to know who's account to trust. But it seems likely that both sides made missteps. Committing him is ludicrous. To me, it sounds like German may have set off this bitter battle and while he might not have mental health problems, he doesn't sound like a net positive team member.
  - apathy 10y ago
    Apparently the judge did not see that as a reason to prevent him from finishing his work and delivering evidence one way or the other (maybe he's awesome and his work will show this, maybe he sucks and his work will show this). "Team science" is actively penalized, just so you know. You're either a rock star PI with 5 R01s and an indentured servant "research professor" to handle actual work, or you're nobody. It is, and always has been, all about the money -- those sweet, sweet indirects from NIH grants, and the endowments from gullible old rich people. Rubin sounds like an asshole, exactly the sort of PI that is selected for at many top-tier institutions. If he's really clever he'll "help" German GTFO of his lab and then write some coded instructions in recommendation letters ("if you've any questions, please call me at 617-867-5309"). And then things can go back to normal, hopefully with Rubin being more cautious and/or less vindictive the next time around.
  - yardie 10y ago
    If net positive team member means go along to get along then you are right. He had questions about the integrity of the research data and reported that to the ethics board. For this his PI and team members branded him as crazy, going so far as to get him committed. If you suspect someone is tampering with your research you review the access logs or, better yet, put a camera on it. You don't spread a rumor that so and so is crazy and watch your coffee mugs because you don't know what crazy they might do. I believe the judge made the correct ruling. It's unfortunate for the lab and researchers that care caught in the middle.
- linuxkerneldev 10y ago
  > It just sounds bizarre and German seems to be the real victim. I have no idea since both stories seem plausible. That said, this portion stood out to me: " In January 2016, a postdoctoral researcher reported that German asked her to perform a tedious task, which she believed was disrespectful, leading to a dispute. German was “red in the face and shaking with rage,” she said in her sworn statement. " Reading the docket NO. 1681CV01640 shows: " The Lab Manager, LaLonde, who would have seen German daily (until May 21, 2016), described plaintiff as "odd sometimes in his behavior, but nothing requiring immediate action, no danger to himself or anyone." " " how they should treat him better and how he deserves things other people should not have. This behavior has lasted for a while. " That makes me question exactly who is the real victim. There doesn't seem to be enough evidence to know for sure. I've seen both types of things. I've seen advisors sabotage their pupils. I've seen pupils blame their advisors when things didn't go their way. I'm sure we've all heard how Robert Openheimer tried to poison his tutor at Cambridge. Unrelated, but still worth mentioning is also a suspicious suicide of a former lover of his. Openheimer got out of trouble, despite the attempted murder because of his parents influence at Cambridge. It is interesting that this article mentions German was with his parents as well. That swayed me a bit against believing that German was the real victim.
  - LanceH 10y ago
    The bar for dragging someone away by force for potential involuntary commitment is pretty damn high. It's way above making an appointment with a psychiatrist and moving further if he skips the appointment.
    - mzs 10y ago
      It depends on where you live to some extent, but it goes like this where I live (I know cause it happened just like this). A (in this case well-meaning good) kid calls the police saying your kid is suicidal. The police and paramedics show-up to your house. You and your kid say all is fine, SI has passed but paramedics say a LCSW needs to make the call, police agree. They strap your kid to a stretcher and go to hospital. There you learn that a social worker cannot make the call unless your kid is sure to not be in an altered state (like say high on drugs), so you need for a nurse to draw blood and wait for results. A doctor looks at the test results showing no substances and calls for the LCSW. A social worker shows-up speaking to you and your kid separately. The social worker now needs to consult a psychologist and the doctor on call. The doctor on call discharges your kid from the ER. Clearly this can be abused, but I'm happy it's the way it is.
- jessriedel 10y ago
  > retaliation prompted by German’s allegation of scientific misconduct against Rubin and two of his students. (The allegation was later dismissed.) Allegations of academic misconduct can be a serious, career-ending thing, even if they are dismissed. If German did this maliciously, or even just negligently, Rubin might have been very justly incensed (but getting someone committed of course is completely unjustified).

jbmorgado 10y ago

Well, this German guy seems to be a extremely unpleasant person to work with. I'm not sure if it's a problem with education or a problem with reduced authority but I wouldn't see these kind of issues some years ago. I just can't tell if it was because people in the past knew how to behave themselves when in a team or if it was because the PI's had more leeway to get rid of people like German. Normal people, specially when they have no option but to work in a team, can reach a common ground, and from the article, the PI tried in several meetings to appease the issues and reach that common understanding. I do see that the PI was also not in the right by sending the mental staff to pick up German in the middle of the night, but that seems to happen after more than one year of trying to solve the conflict with the guy. All in all, it's quite sad to see a good research team being hurt, because some guy doesn't know how to behave around other people and to see the higher authorities side with the person that started the problems just to look politically correct and go against the "installed power". It's my belief that in some years from now, when Universities start getting behind in research due these kind of actions, that competition will get into play again and this nonsense will stop.

1_2__3 10y ago
That you're trying to tie this in with SJWs and such is just sickening. Not every dispute boils down to entitlement, and there's no evidence of it here. Just smart people differing opinion and one side taking it too far. You can disagree all you want but I'll go with the judge who got all the facts.
- jbmorgado 10y ago
  No, German doesn't fit in the category of smart people. German clearly has major socializing problems. He his certainly not "smart" when it comes to social relations and even if what happened to him was excessive (like I said it was before) he is still not fit to work in a team. Let's remember that he had problems with other people inside the team, not only with the PI.
  - Avenger42 10y ago

supahfly_remix 10y ago

FWIW, 30.5 m is 100 ft which explains the unusual number.

phaemon 10y ago
That false precision really bugs me. It's obviously not exactly 100 feet - no-one is ever going to get a measuring tape and check it - so 30m is a much better unit conversion!
- woliveirajr 10y ago
  I usually see it the other way round. When a movie is in US units and gets translated to literal values, like 16 km, 32 km, and so on.... when it's obvious that it doesn't matter.
- bostonpete 10y ago
  They should have just said something like "100 feet (about 30m)", since that's what the actual court order is. I get that a science-oriented publication would have a convention of converting to MKS units, but in this case I think it was excessive.
  - Bartweiss 10y ago
    Broadly, I think it's inappropriate to convert when the specification is tied to units like this. For a wild hypothetical, imagine the definition of the foot was increased by 10%. The country would burn, of course, but this restraining order would probably expand with the change. If you're measuring a fact about the world, convert as you will. But if you're "creating" a fact like the court is, that should probably be reported in the original terms.
    - manarth 10y ago
      The definition of "a foot" was only agreed relatively recently: it wasn't all that long ago that countries differed on their definition. That difference in measuring systems (an Amsterdam foot was 11 inches, a Swedish foot was 12 inches) was attributed as one of the causes of the sinking of the Vasa [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasa_(ship) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasa_(ship)

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

apathy 10y ago

This is awesome. The way that (often foreign, often on J1 or H1B or student visa) students are treated in major labs is often horrible. If this destroys Rubin's lab, so much the better. Maybe he can serve as a warning to other PIs.

devoply 10y ago
Yes this sort of behavior is common. One of my dad's friends was doing his PhD as an immigrant in the 90s in the US and his professor did something similar to him. Had the police called and accused him of interfering with other people's experiments due to some small dispute that had nothing do with the lab. This is common fare behavior in the US research establishment against immigrants. Another friend ended up getting electroconvulsive therapy mostly as a result of dealing with a bad advisor, ending up in the hospital like this guy, and having the shrinks diagnose him with depression, etc. He had no family, they gave him ECD despite the fact that he did not want ECD on the recommendation of the shrinks, his personality changed significantly after that.
- apathy 10y ago
  I heard it was "worse" way "back then" but I had no idea how much worse. Without regulations and scrutiny, competitive people will push the envelope on how bad they can abuse others and for how little money. Gotta push back.
brd529 10y ago
I'm more saddened than anything. Rubin's lab is dedicated to studying Spinal Muscular Atrophy - the leading cause of infant death in the USA. My cousin died of SMA and it was absolutely devastating for my aunt and uncle. If Rubin's lab is destroyed by this, even if justified, it is a setback for SMA research. I wouldn't call it awesome.
- AnimalMuppet 10y ago
  If (note well that "if") Rubin's lab is fabricating data, is it still a setback for SMA research if Rubin's lab is destroyed? Or is the fabricating data already the setback for SMA research, and removing the fabricator is... maybe not a step forward, but at least stopping stepping back?

iaw 10y ago

Wow, this is an excellent example of unbiased journalism.

quasse 10y ago

"Often, a person accused of misconduct will try to “isolate, humiliate, and terminate” the whistleblower, says Patrick Burns ... But he’s never seen a case involving a forced mental exam." Unfortunately this is certainly not the first time this exact tactic has been used. Adiran Schoolcraft was held against his will in a psychiatric facility for 6 days after exposing corruption in the NYPD. [1] https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/414/right-to-remain-silent https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/414/... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Schoolcraft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Schoolcraft