5 ms·

You are ignoring the fact that someone born into a poor family in an inner city like has an underfunded, underachieving public school, overwhelmed and inexperie

by jartelt 10y ago

You are ignoring the fact that someone born into a poor family in an inner city like has an underfunded, underachieving public school, overwhelmed and inexperienced teachers, a below average guidance counselor, no role models who have gone to college, parents who do not know anything about applying for scholarships or financial aid, a diet of fast food, and few examples of other people in similar roles who became millionaires. In a lot of cases, the best chance of success for people in these situations is to be LUCKY and win a lottery to get into a charter school. Or, to be LUCKY and have the physical tools needed to get a sports scholarship.

mindcrime 10y ago
an underfunded, underachieving public school, overwhelmed and inexperienced teachers, a below average guidance counselor, no role models who have gone to college, parents who do not know anything about applying for scholarships or financial aid, a diet of fast food, and few examples of other people in similar roles who became millionaires That sounds like my life except for the inner city part. Substitute "redneck-ville" though, and it's the same basic principle. And I will say that I think the idea that these things mean you need massive amounts of luck to become "successful" (depending on exactly how you define successful) is bullshit. I never had any particular amount of luck that I can identify, relative to my peers who were born in similar circumstances, and while I'm not a millionaire (but I'm still working on it), I've been what most people would call reasonably successful. In my experience, what it takes is mainly insane work ethic, an indomitable attitude, dogged determination, and relentless pursuit of your goals.
- jartelt 10y ago
  First off, congrats on getting to where you are today. It sounds like your hard work is really paying off. I would just note that one of the points of the article is that it is difficult for a successful person to recognize the lucky events in their life. Perhaps in one of your job interviews you hit it off with the interviewer because you went to the same college or were both from "redneck-ville." Another person with equal skill and work ethic could have not gotten that job because they weren't form the same background and didn't have the rapport with the interviewer. I think you can say in that scenario one person got lucky and the other was unlucky. No one is saying it is bad to be lucky. It just helps with empathy when you take the world view that not every outcome is completely fair and logical.
  - mindcrime 10y ago
    I don't see anybody really saying that "every outcome is fair and logical" though. My issue is just all this luck talk is counter-productive. I mean, if you convince a group of people that life is nothing but luck, how have you helped them? Why bother working hard at all, if you don't believe it can possibly pay off?
    - bradyo 10y ago
      Because people working hard in aggregate can improve the situation of _all_ people in the system if the system equally distributes rewards. The problem is we don't live in such a system. So I (and others in this thread) will continue to try to convince people to have more empathy until we do have such a system.
      - mindcrime 10y ago
        "the system" doesn't have to distribute rewards equally for people to work to improve the situation of all (or most) people. So I (and others in this thread) will continue to try to convince people to have more empathy until we do have such a system. I see those as orthogonal concerns. You can have empathy even if you don't have a "everything is luck" mentality.
        jartelt 10y ago
        Sure, you can have empathy with that mentality. But, when you assume everyone less successful than you is less smart and/or doesn't work as hard as you, it's not as likely that you will.
        bradyo 10y ago
        Sure, the system doesn't _have_ to be that way for people to work together. But sooner or later they'll come to the same conclusion you have - what's the point if they're not seeing equal returns? Who knows what will happen at that point - I'd rather fix the system before we get to that point. And sure, you can have some empathy even if you don't have all of the empathy. But those are definitely not orthogonal concerns. Being able to empathize fully with someone's situation IMO includes recognizing that everything truly is luck. Like down to your genetic makeup. Hell, being alive is lucky.
- nitrogen 10y ago
  Since people from "easier" backgrounds don't need those things to succeed, isn't it reasonable to suggest you are "lucky" to have the attitude and determination that made you the exception? Edit: I think it might be productive to society for the exceptional cases to ask how a better attitude could be encouraged in their former peers. Do the ones who fail lack faith that their efforts would pay off, or do they just not care?
  - mindcrime 10y ago
    If you do that, then IMO, you're just redefining "luck" to the point that it doesn't mean anything.
    - nitrogen 10y ago
      I added some more in an edit, but I'll restate my question a bit differently here. I think a lot about the many paths people take through life and where they can and cannot lead, so this is a genuine question. Where did you get your successful attitude? Was it innate, or were you exposed to media or people that encouraged it? For me personally, I think positive-outlook TV shows like Star Trek TNG had a bigger influence on my attitudes toward life than I might want to admit. So I'm really curious where others who take a significantly different path from their peer group derived their motivation to succeed.
      - mindcrime 10y ago
        Where did you get your successful attitude? Was it innate, or were you exposed to media or people that encouraged it? I don't think there's any way for me to answer that. My attitude has been shaped by 43 years of various influences... parents, friends, TV, books, movies, and FSM knows who/what all else.
- ctack 10y ago
  Do you feel in any way grateful for your success and if so, how?

by jartelt 10y ago

mindcrime 10y ago

an underfunded, underachieving public school, overwhelmed and inexperienced teachers, a below average guidance counselor, no role models who have gone to college, parents who do not know anything about applying for scholarships or financial aid, a diet of fast food, and few examples of other people in similar roles who became millionaires That sounds like my life except for the inner city part. Substitute "redneck-ville" though, and it's the same basic principle. And I will say that I think the idea that these things mean you need massive amounts of luck to become "successful" (depending on exactly how you define successful) is bullshit. I never had any particular amount of luck that I can identify, relative to my peers who were born in similar circumstances, and while I'm not a millionaire (but I'm still working on it), I've been what most people would call reasonably successful. In my experience, what it takes is mainly insane work ethic, an indomitable attitude, dogged determination, and relentless pursuit of your goals.

jartelt 10y ago
First off, congrats on getting to where you are today. It sounds like your hard work is really paying off. I would just note that one of the points of the article is that it is difficult for a successful person to recognize the lucky events in their life. Perhaps in one of your job interviews you hit it off with the interviewer because you went to the same college or were both from "redneck-ville." Another person with equal skill and work ethic could have not gotten that job because they weren't form the same background and didn't have the rapport with the interviewer. I think you can say in that scenario one person got lucky and the other was unlucky. No one is saying it is bad to be lucky. It just helps with empathy when you take the world view that not every outcome is completely fair and logical.
- mindcrime 10y ago
  I don't see anybody really saying that "every outcome is fair and logical" though. My issue is just all this luck talk is counter-productive. I mean, if you convince a group of people that life is nothing but luck, how have you helped them? Why bother working hard at all, if you don't believe it can possibly pay off?
  - bradyo 10y ago
    Because people working hard in aggregate can improve the situation of _all_ people in the system if the system equally distributes rewards. The problem is we don't live in such a system. So I (and others in this thread) will continue to try to convince people to have more empathy until we do have such a system.
    - mindcrime 10y ago
      "the system" doesn't have to distribute rewards equally for people to work to improve the situation of all (or most) people. So I (and others in this thread) will continue to try to convince people to have more empathy until we do have such a system. I see those as orthogonal concerns. You can have empathy even if you don't have a "everything is luck" mentality.
      - jartelt 10y ago
        Sure, you can have empathy with that mentality. But, when you assume everyone less successful than you is less smart and/or doesn't work as hard as you, it's not as likely that you will.
      - bradyo 10y ago
        Sure, the system doesn't _have_ to be that way for people to work together. But sooner or later they'll come to the same conclusion you have - what's the point if they're not seeing equal returns? Who knows what will happen at that point - I'd rather fix the system before we get to that point. And sure, you can have some empathy even if you don't have all of the empathy. But those are definitely not orthogonal concerns. Being able to empathize fully with someone's situation IMO includes recognizing that everything truly is luck. Like down to your genetic makeup. Hell, being alive is lucky.
nitrogen 10y ago
Since people from "easier" backgrounds don't need those things to succeed, isn't it reasonable to suggest you are "lucky" to have the attitude and determination that made you the exception? Edit: I think it might be productive to society for the exceptional cases to ask how a better attitude could be encouraged in their former peers. Do the ones who fail lack faith that their efforts would pay off, or do they just not care?
- mindcrime 10y ago
  If you do that, then IMO, you're just redefining "luck" to the point that it doesn't mean anything.
  - nitrogen 10y ago
    I added some more in an edit, but I'll restate my question a bit differently here. I think a lot about the many paths people take through life and where they can and cannot lead, so this is a genuine question. Where did you get your successful attitude? Was it innate, or were you exposed to media or people that encouraged it? For me personally, I think positive-outlook TV shows like Star Trek TNG had a bigger influence on my attitudes toward life than I might want to admit. So I'm really curious where others who take a significantly different path from their peer group derived their motivation to succeed.
    - mindcrime 10y ago
      Where did you get your successful attitude? Was it innate, or were you exposed to media or people that encouraged it? I don't think there's any way for me to answer that. My attitude has been shaped by 43 years of various influences... parents, friends, TV, books, movies, and FSM knows who/what all else.
ctack 10y ago
Do you feel in any way grateful for your success and if so, how?