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It doesn't matter the reasons why they don't take education seriously, the fact is that they don't. It would do absolutely nothing for these students to provide

by wang_li 10y ago

It doesn't matter the reasons why they don't take education seriously, the fact is that they don't. It would do absolutely nothing for these students to provide them with free college tuition unless you can solve those other problems first. It's not until we have 95-99% high school graduation rates, with a majority of those graduating also have high GPAs, that we need to consider whether we are providing sufficient access to colleges and universities. ([1] According to the very first paragraph of the Wikipedia entry you linked there are studies that suggest the fundamental attribution error doesn't even exist in practice.)

Spivak 10y ago
So we just do nothing about the 80% of students that are graduating high school? The US has 300 million people, we are allowed to work on more than one thing at a time.
wpietri 10y ago
First, you again ignore the students who do take education seriously but have other issues. Second: > It doesn't matter the reasons why they don't take education seriously, the fact is that they don't. It would do absolutely nothing for these students The reasons do matter, because some are more amenable to fixing than others. They also matter because we should fix them. > It's not until we have 95-99% high school graduation rates, with a majority of those graduating also have high GPAs, that we need to consider whether we are providing sufficient access to colleges and universities. This is monstrous. It is an excuse for inaction, not a serious plan. If only one student needs more education but cannot get it, then we need to consider why. That other students are unready does not lessen their need. That other students are unready does not lessen the potential benefit to society of having a more productive, better-educated person in society. [1] So? More work suggests that it does. And whether or not it's a primary effect or the derivative of other effects, you are certainly engaging in the pattern of behavior here, which is the point you are so busily ignoring.
- wang_li 10y ago
  You should stop trying to paint me as evil and instead read what I'm writing. You're also ignoring the point: There is zero societal value in providing cheap college to a student who, for whatever reasons, has dropped out of school in the eighth grade. We need to fix high school, not college. And as far as providing for those who are ready, do you have any statistics that show that students who would benefit from college are unable to do so? We provide tax breaks for colleges and universities, we have grants available for needy students, we have subsidized loans available for most every student. The average student loan debt in 2016 was ~$30,000. The lifetime earnings benefit of having a bachelors degree is $600,000 - $900,000. There doesn't seem to be a college access problem.
  - wpietri 10y ago
    I have read what you're writing, thanks. That point is different than the one you made previously, and is much narrower. Plenty of people are excited to fix high school. But you're saying we should refuse to improve college access until high school is comprehensively fixed. (And you ignore all the other problems that reduce readiness for college besides high schools.) Sorry, why should I provide statistics that you can readily look up since you're the one claiming you already have all the answers here? It's not my job to forcibly educate you one study at a time. Especially since you demonstrate no willingness to actually understand the problem.

by wang_li 10y ago

Spivak 10y ago

So we just do nothing about the 80% of students that are graduating high school? The US has 300 million people, we are allowed to work on more than one thing at a time.

wpietri 10y ago

First, you again ignore the students who do take education seriously but have other issues. Second: > It doesn't matter the reasons why they don't take education seriously, the fact is that they don't. It would do absolutely nothing for these students The reasons do matter, because some are more amenable to fixing than others. They also matter because we should fix them. > It's not until we have 95-99% high school graduation rates, with a majority of those graduating also have high GPAs, that we need to consider whether we are providing sufficient access to colleges and universities. This is monstrous. It is an excuse for inaction, not a serious plan. If only one student needs more education but cannot get it, then we need to consider why. That other students are unready does not lessen their need. That other students are unready does not lessen the potential benefit to society of having a more productive, better-educated person in society. [1] So? More work suggests that it does. And whether or not it's a primary effect or the derivative of other effects, you are certainly engaging in the pattern of behavior here, which is the point you are so busily ignoring.

wang_li 10y ago
You should stop trying to paint me as evil and instead read what I'm writing. You're also ignoring the point: There is zero societal value in providing cheap college to a student who, for whatever reasons, has dropped out of school in the eighth grade. We need to fix high school, not college. And as far as providing for those who are ready, do you have any statistics that show that students who would benefit from college are unable to do so? We provide tax breaks for colleges and universities, we have grants available for needy students, we have subsidized loans available for most every student. The average student loan debt in 2016 was ~$30,000. The lifetime earnings benefit of having a bachelors degree is $600,000 - $900,000. There doesn't seem to be a college access problem.
- wpietri 10y ago
  I have read what you're writing, thanks. That point is different than the one you made previously, and is much narrower. Plenty of people are excited to fix high school. But you're saying we should refuse to improve college access until high school is comprehensively fixed. (And you ignore all the other problems that reduce readiness for college besides high schools.) Sorry, why should I provide statistics that you can readily look up since you're the one claiming you already have all the answers here? It's not my job to forcibly educate you one study at a time. Especially since you demonstrate no willingness to actually understand the problem.