6 ms·

I'm a strong determinist. Effort, hard work and skill is irrelevant (any relevance comes from the fact that you're already in your statistical band for expected

by tabeth 10y ago

I'm a strong determinist. Effort, hard work and skill is irrelevant (any relevance comes from the fact that you're already in your statistical band for expected success and are trying to maximize within that). I believe most of your success is determined before you even take one step on this planet. Step one is acknowledging the truth: your initial circumstances dictate your future. Once this is acknowledged, we as a species can begin focusing on making the initial conditions ideal for everyone. Note: I am not saying you shouldn't work hard. I am just saying that it's not doing as much as you think. Individual examples of success (I've done decently despite two parents who didn't finish elementary school, live in inner city, etc) are not of relevance for planning the future of the human race. The world is chaotic, so there will be outliers in spite of the "determinist property" of the world. Parents' own desperation to "set their children up" for success is anecdotal confirmation of this fact. --- Some examples: Socioeconomic status v. Education http://www.apa.org/pi/ses/resources/publications/education.aspx http://www.apa.org/pi/ses/resources/publications/education.a... Health v. Education http://www.nber.org/digest/mar07/w12352.html http://www.nber.org/digest/mar07/w12352.html Health v. Socioeconomic Status http://www.apa.org/pi/ses/resources/publications/work-stress-health.aspx http://www.apa.org/pi/ses/resources/publications/work-stress... Parent education v. child long term success https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2853053/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2853053/ Skin color v. attractiveness http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0095798405278341 http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0095798405278341 Height v. success http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/tall-people-more-likely-to-be-successful-in-life-study-find-a6919431.html http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/... Weight (at birth) v. success http://ns.umich.edu/new/releases/5882 http://ns.umich.edu/new/releases/5882 Attractiveness v. success https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/games-primates-play/201203/the-truth-about-why-beautiful-people-are-more-successful https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/games-primates-play/201... Gender v. success https://www.historians.org/publications-and-directories/perspectives-on-history/january-2013/gender-and-success-in-academia https://www.historians.org/publications-and-directories/pers... Eye color v. alcoholism http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0191886900001574 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0191886900... Geography v. socioeconomic success http://www.cid.harvard.edu/archive/andes/documents/bgpapers/geography_socioeconomicdevelopment.pdf http://www.cid.harvard.edu/archive/andes/documents/bgpapers/...

Raphmedia 10y ago
I would rather believe in Existentialism. I come from a very poor background. Much of my childhood friends are either dead, in prison or working minimum wage. If I would have "acknowledged" the truth, like most of them did, I would have ended in the same position. Humans are not animals. We can evolve of our own free will. Statistics do not apply at the individual level.
- osti 10y ago
  And what caused you to not acknowledge the so called truth. Determinism implies that even this acknowledgment was beyond your control, even though you feel like it wasn't.
  - baldfat 10y ago
    May I quote from Jean-Paul Sartre? "What is meant here by saying that existence precedes essence? It means that, first of all, man turns up, appears on the scene, and, only afterwards, defines himself. If man, as the existentialist conceives him, is indefinable, it is because at first he is nothing. Only afterward will he be something, and he himself will have made what he will be." I believe I understand the arguments against freewill, but that doesn't answer the question of why people fighting for purpose and meaning.
  - Raphmedia 10y ago
    I do accept that there is some "determinism" in life. You do not choose the game, you do not choose the board and you do not choose the pieces. However, you are playing the game. To say that you have no control and that the game is playing itself is to have "mauvaise foi". Life might limit your options but only you can make choices. To wait until life cuts out all options but one is not letting life make choices for you. It's deceiving yourself. No choices are made, options are simply slowly getting removed from you. That's not having no freedom, that's not acting on your own freedom. Hardcore existentialists will even say that the act of not acting on your own freedom is an act of freedom itself. You are free to let life take all options from you.

by tabeth 10y ago

Raphmedia 10y ago

I would rather believe in Existentialism. I come from a very poor background. Much of my childhood friends are either dead, in prison or working minimum wage. If I would have "acknowledged" the truth, like most of them did, I would have ended in the same position. Humans are not animals. We can evolve of our own free will. Statistics do not apply at the individual level.

osti 10y ago
And what caused you to not acknowledge the so called truth. Determinism implies that even this acknowledgment was beyond your control, even though you feel like it wasn't.
- baldfat 10y ago
  May I quote from Jean-Paul Sartre? "What is meant here by saying that existence precedes essence? It means that, first of all, man turns up, appears on the scene, and, only afterwards, defines himself. If man, as the existentialist conceives him, is indefinable, it is because at first he is nothing. Only afterward will he be something, and he himself will have made what he will be." I believe I understand the arguments against freewill, but that doesn't answer the question of why people fighting for purpose and meaning.
- Raphmedia 10y ago
  I do accept that there is some "determinism" in life. You do not choose the game, you do not choose the board and you do not choose the pieces. However, you are playing the game. To say that you have no control and that the game is playing itself is to have "mauvaise foi". Life might limit your options but only you can make choices. To wait until life cuts out all options but one is not letting life make choices for you. It's deceiving yourself. No choices are made, options are simply slowly getting removed from you. That's not having no freedom, that's not acting on your own freedom. Hardcore existentialists will even say that the act of not acting on your own freedom is an act of freedom itself. You are free to let life take all options from you.