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Several years ago, if I had to choose a video game company where I would loved to work as a software developer, it would have been Blizzard Entertainment. Now,

Several years ago, if I had to choose a video game company where I would loved to work as a software developer, it would have been Blizzard Entertainment. Now, it would definitely be Riot Games. As player, spectator and developper, I'm so impressed by their work, the evolution of their game since the release in 2009, how they listen their community [1], try new things and, most of the time, admit their mistakes (e.g. removing the ranked solo queue in 2016) and rollback [2] or improve their changes when it's needed. Their game is the most played game ever. ~100 millions active players every month [3]. Their game is also the most watched game ever. ~40 millions unique viewers for the finals of the last World Cup in September [4]. Hundreds of thousands of viewers on Twitch every day (without even counting the Asian region). They have revolutionized the "e-sport" in Occident. I don't play anymore (for now) but I'm still watching most of the professional games because they created an accessible, passionate and entertaining game to watch (for those interested, the new season just started in Korea, China and Europe, and tomorrow in North America [5]). Really inspiring. Congratz Riot Games. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends [2] http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/competitive/riot-pls-ranked-pls-2017-season-ranked-changes http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/competiti... [3] http://www.riftherald.com/2016/9/13/12865314/monthly-lol-players-2016-active-worldwide http://www.riftherald.com/2016/9/13/12865314/monthly-lol-pla... [4] http://www.espn.com/esports/story/_/id/18221739/2016-league-legends-world-championship-numbers http://www.espn.com/esports/story/_/id/18221739/2016-league-... [5] http://www.lolesports.com/en_US http://www.lolesports.com/en_US

oblio 10y ago
Valve is pretty cool. Both their products and their internal policies. And regarding Riot, their marketing is (was?) really shady.
- omni 10y ago
  > And regarding Riot, their marketing is (was?) really shady. If you're going to throw shade like this it'd be helpful to bring some examples, I have no idea what you're referring to so this contributes nothing to my understanding other than FUD.
  - oblio 10y ago
    I'm a long time Dota player, I started playing in 2005. Pendragon, one of the original Riot employees (maybe co-founder? can't really remember), owned the official Dota site, dota-allstars.com. Not long after launching LoL, Pendragon replaced the whole site, including: hero page descriptions, various Dota related web-tools, forum, etc., with a JPEG link thanking the Dota community for all the fish and pointing everyone to the LoL site. He released the forum database available 5 years later, I think, when it didn't matter anymore. The LoL advertising during the early period was extremely Dota-hostile. Dota 1 had its flaws, but they were basically pissing all over it. Tournaments where LoL was played were paid to ban any kind of LoL competitors (generally aimed directly at Dota 2). Etc., etc.
    - captain_crabs 10y ago
      As one of the people who lived through/was affected by this, I can't ever in good faith support or work for Riot because I just can't shake the "this is the kind of person I would never want to work with" feeling Pendragon earned himself. Since he's one of the primary founders, that feeling is inextricably emotionally tangled up with how I feel about the company as a whole. Here's a video that goes in depth if y'all are wondering what this is about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBI9NlPqRi0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBI9NlPqRi0 Thankfully it doesn't matter anyway, because Dota 2 is simply a better game ;)
    - baldfat 10y ago
      ALL LIES - Pendragon replaced the whole site. https://web.archive.org/web/20100712013033/http://www.dota-allstars.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20100712013033/http://www.dota-a... The wayback machine is great. I heard these rummors years ago and they never stop. Look up the site from whatever date you want. Mescon closed allstars.com on July 22, 2010 citing dropping statistics and his love of League of Legends. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_of_the_Ancients https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_of_the_Ancients DoTA -Allstars is a variant of DoTA and had been passed down from one person to the next in development and is stil developed by IceFrog at Valve.
      - 10y ago
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
jtmarmon 10y ago
You might want to reconsider blizzard...overwatch is doing extremely well and has not been out for very long. Just for off the cuff figures, the LoL subreddit has 942k subs, and overwatch has 743k subs. Overwatch is very promising
- errantspark 10y ago
  Also Overwatch has some of best art direction/aesthetic quality of any game I've ever seen. League is my goto example of art direction failure.
  - no_wave 10y ago
    For a more modern game, yeah, but StarCraft 1 is just in a league of its own, specifically vanilla (the Valkyrie and devourer feel a little off-key, along with some of the BW textures). The feel of every unit, texture, and doodad and even the sound design in vanilla is just perfect.
    - yoodenvranx 10y ago
      > ... even the sound design in vanilla is just perfect The sound of the tank when it switches to siege mode is one of the best and most satisfying sounds I have ever heard in my life.
      - ethbro 10y ago
        Good old HISS-KACHOOSH.
  - LindenRyuujin 10y ago
    I couldn't disagree more - the visuals in Overwatch are in fact the main reason I left it after the open beta. Overwatch is very pretty (both games are in my opinion), however it is so busy. There are no visual cues in the design - characters and scenery share the same palette, important elements (like payloads, turrets, etc) don't stand out. No way of knowing where the important flow points are other than to play the game a lot (no indication of where the playload will go). Having had such a great example in TF2 that did all this so well it was just sad trying to get to grips with Overwatch. League of Legends on the other hand had an amazing visual update a year or two ago and they explicitly addressed all these kind of issues. Making sure the map doesn't distract from the important in game information. Both games have a lot of characters and a lot of knowledge burden for the players, so anything they can pull off the player makes a big difference when first starting.
foepys 10y ago
Is Riot still using an Adobe Air client as a launcher for League of Legends?
- ggregoire 10y ago
  They have written and released a new client at the end of 2016. They use HTML, JavaScript and C++. More info: https://engineering.riotgames.com/news/architecture-league-client-update https://engineering.riotgames.com/news/architecture-league-c...
- vanattab 10y ago
  I don't think so. They just released a new client (might still be in beta, I have not logged in for months).
- zsmizzle 10y ago
  They have a new client that doesn't used Adobe Air anymore. When asked what technologies they use in the new client: "HTML/JS/CSS for the UI, C++ for the core functionality. We're planning on publishing a deep dive blog on this during alpha, so make sure to keep your eyes out for it!" [1] edit: "ggregoire" posted a better answer below [2]. [1] http://na.leagueoflegends.com/na/site/2016-season-update/client-update.html http://na.leagueoflegends.com/na/site/2016-season-update/cli... (See the comment posted by Riot employee "CapnBranFlakes") [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=13438077 https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=13438077
frik 10y ago
This Moba and TowerDefence genres that started as maps and mods of RTS games (Age of Empire 1/2 and WarCraft3). I personally find this grinding gameplay style boring. Like Farmville or playing at a casino or lottery. Pointless and boring repetitive. I prefer real games. Sadly, triple-A RTS games are no more, no new release for 10 years (beside SC2, which I dislike). Halo Wars 1 and C&C4 marked the end, and the low point of RTS by causualisation to fit the consoles. Whereas modern games like Watch Dogs 2 on consoles have a more complex control schema and RTS elements with it's drone and hacking. One day I want a new AoE and C&C with modern graphics as PC first triple-A game.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- eljimmy 10y ago
  To each his own. I find DOTA (a MOBA) extremely entertaining. Far from repetitive. There are so many heroes with so many different dynamics that can arise from one game to the next. I don't really consider it a grind at all. MMPORGs are where the true grinding occurs.
- justicezyx 10y ago
  TBH blz neglects war3 because they are riding the wow cash cow. War3 has always had a healthy community. In China war3 community was the pincle of any gaming community in history. Blz stops releasing balancing patch after 1.23, not sure exactly. Then the games all become identical. The players dwindles. Most go to war3 DotA. Even then blz had a chance to capture the next big thing in their ecosystem. They neglected it. War3 has been a total disappointment for me personally. War3 game is way more entertaining imho. Blz really advanced the state of art of RTS by mixing traditional RTS with RPG elements (I bet it's not blz invented). The graphics shows a good presentation appealing to showing to large crowd. Sadly they squandered the golden opportunity...
- urda 10y ago
  Your line of reasoning makes zero sense. In a single comment you manage to claim MOBA type games are "Pointless and boring repetitive." but then celebrate RTS-style games which have similar mechanics to MOBAs. > I prefer real games. FWIW MOBA's and TD style games are real games.
cjslep 10y ago
Re, the community: Early on riot was horrible at community management. They fired Bobaganoosh, eliminated all RP aspects of League by cutting out descriptions, stories, and the JoJ! A lot of people started to flee, and when Riot realized it, they promoted Nikita from intern to the posterchild female that gamer guys oogled. Around that time, before I quit playing I angrily sent an email how Riot was killing their community and needed to do some sort of "Summoner Highlight" segment to promote their fans that care. Nikasaur picked up on that idea or already had it and started showcasing summoners, which was cool. I'm glad they've moved on and up from that. Jax dodge best dodge.
Thaxll 10y ago
Riot try hard to be the new Blizzard but it won't work, they have just one game which is very popular but it's nothing compare to Starcraft / Warcraft universe in term of quality. I really don't like MOBA ( HoTS included ) it's the type of game that killed RTS / MMO.
- ggregoire 10y ago
  > Riot try hard to be the new Blizzard In what way?
- Kiro 10y ago
  Are you aware that Riot Games is wholly owned by Tencent? Not disagreeing with you but they're part of a much bigger picture. Tencent even owns 12% or something of Blizzard.
j_s 10y ago
I don't think there is even a comparison between Riot/LoL vs. Valve/Dota2 when it comes to esports prize pools (Dota2 3x's LoL?)... Blizz is throwing a lot of money around too but it feels desperate. Perhaps the deficit demonstrates Riot's skill in maintaining their community?
NamTaf 10y ago
How they listen to their community? It took literally years for a sandbox mode and replays to be implemented, both of which the community carried on about for ages. For a game that wants to grow in professional competitive circles, those features are pretty damn fundamental and it blows my mind that they took this long to exist. I'd also argue that they're not too keen to try new things, given that even the devs themselves intentionally pigeonhole champions into a strict set of roles [1], something that has resulted in a relatively stale meta (another frequent complaint about the game from some circles). In their defence, this sort of locked-down style of meta evidently works for a large number of players, so I understand why they don't rock the boat on that regard. [1]: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/dev-blog-classes-subclasses http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/...
- tomwilson 10y ago
  Dota has always been much more interesting to me. It's like a sandbox full of overpowered stuff that they leave for the community to figure out how to best exploit. And lol is like yep this patch you will use these champions and you will play them in this manner. And if you don't you will be punished heavily by other players for not playing "correctly".
  - NamTaf 10y ago
    I say it without any understatement that Icefrog is probably the best game-balancing developer ever.
Accacin 10y ago
I'm not so sure. They've banned players for not playing the game how they've decided that you need to play the game.

oblio 10y ago

Valve is pretty cool. Both their products and their internal policies. And regarding Riot, their marketing is (was?) really shady.

omni 10y ago
> And regarding Riot, their marketing is (was?) really shady. If you're going to throw shade like this it'd be helpful to bring some examples, I have no idea what you're referring to so this contributes nothing to my understanding other than FUD.
- oblio 10y ago
  I'm a long time Dota player, I started playing in 2005. Pendragon, one of the original Riot employees (maybe co-founder? can't really remember), owned the official Dota site, dota-allstars.com. Not long after launching LoL, Pendragon replaced the whole site, including: hero page descriptions, various Dota related web-tools, forum, etc., with a JPEG link thanking the Dota community for all the fish and pointing everyone to the LoL site. He released the forum database available 5 years later, I think, when it didn't matter anymore. The LoL advertising during the early period was extremely Dota-hostile. Dota 1 had its flaws, but they were basically pissing all over it. Tournaments where LoL was played were paid to ban any kind of LoL competitors (generally aimed directly at Dota 2). Etc., etc.
  - captain_crabs 10y ago
    As one of the people who lived through/was affected by this, I can't ever in good faith support or work for Riot because I just can't shake the "this is the kind of person I would never want to work with" feeling Pendragon earned himself. Since he's one of the primary founders, that feeling is inextricably emotionally tangled up with how I feel about the company as a whole. Here's a video that goes in depth if y'all are wondering what this is about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBI9NlPqRi0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBI9NlPqRi0 Thankfully it doesn't matter anyway, because Dota 2 is simply a better game ;)
  - baldfat 10y ago
    ALL LIES - Pendragon replaced the whole site. https://web.archive.org/web/20100712013033/http://www.dota-allstars.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20100712013033/http://www.dota-a... The wayback machine is great. I heard these rummors years ago and they never stop. Look up the site from whatever date you want. Mescon closed allstars.com on July 22, 2010 citing dropping statistics and his love of League of Legends. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_of_the_Ancients https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_of_the_Ancients DoTA -Allstars is a variant of DoTA and had been passed down from one person to the next in development and is stil developed by IceFrog at Valve.
    - 10y ago

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

jtmarmon 10y ago

You might want to reconsider blizzard...overwatch is doing extremely well and has not been out for very long. Just for off the cuff figures, the LoL subreddit has 942k subs, and overwatch has 743k subs. Overwatch is very promising

errantspark 10y ago
Also Overwatch has some of best art direction/aesthetic quality of any game I've ever seen. League is my goto example of art direction failure.
- no_wave 10y ago
  For a more modern game, yeah, but StarCraft 1 is just in a league of its own, specifically vanilla (the Valkyrie and devourer feel a little off-key, along with some of the BW textures). The feel of every unit, texture, and doodad and even the sound design in vanilla is just perfect.
  - yoodenvranx 10y ago
    > ... even the sound design in vanilla is just perfect The sound of the tank when it switches to siege mode is one of the best and most satisfying sounds I have ever heard in my life.
    - ethbro 10y ago
      Good old HISS-KACHOOSH.
- LindenRyuujin 10y ago
  I couldn't disagree more - the visuals in Overwatch are in fact the main reason I left it after the open beta. Overwatch is very pretty (both games are in my opinion), however it is so busy. There are no visual cues in the design - characters and scenery share the same palette, important elements (like payloads, turrets, etc) don't stand out. No way of knowing where the important flow points are other than to play the game a lot (no indication of where the playload will go). Having had such a great example in TF2 that did all this so well it was just sad trying to get to grips with Overwatch. League of Legends on the other hand had an amazing visual update a year or two ago and they explicitly addressed all these kind of issues. Making sure the map doesn't distract from the important in game information. Both games have a lot of characters and a lot of knowledge burden for the players, so anything they can pull off the player makes a big difference when first starting.

foepys 10y ago

Is Riot still using an Adobe Air client as a launcher for League of Legends?

ggregoire 10y ago
They have written and released a new client at the end of 2016. They use HTML, JavaScript and C++. More info: https://engineering.riotgames.com/news/architecture-league-client-update https://engineering.riotgames.com/news/architecture-league-c...
vanattab 10y ago
I don't think so. They just released a new client (might still be in beta, I have not logged in for months).
zsmizzle 10y ago
They have a new client that doesn't used Adobe Air anymore. When asked what technologies they use in the new client: "HTML/JS/CSS for the UI, C++ for the core functionality. We're planning on publishing a deep dive blog on this during alpha, so make sure to keep your eyes out for it!" [1] edit: "ggregoire" posted a better answer below [2]. [1] http://na.leagueoflegends.com/na/site/2016-season-update/client-update.html http://na.leagueoflegends.com/na/site/2016-season-update/cli... (See the comment posted by Riot employee "CapnBranFlakes") [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=13438077 https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=13438077

frik 10y ago

This Moba and TowerDefence genres that started as maps and mods of RTS games (Age of Empire 1/2 and WarCraft3). I personally find this grinding gameplay style boring. Like Farmville or playing at a casino or lottery. Pointless and boring repetitive. I prefer real games. Sadly, triple-A RTS games are no more, no new release for 10 years (beside SC2, which I dislike). Halo Wars 1 and C&C4 marked the end, and the low point of RTS by causualisation to fit the consoles. Whereas modern games like Watch Dogs 2 on consoles have a more complex control schema and RTS elements with it's drone and hacking. One day I want a new AoE and C&C with modern graphics as PC first triple-A game.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
eljimmy 10y ago
To each his own. I find DOTA (a MOBA) extremely entertaining. Far from repetitive. There are so many heroes with so many different dynamics that can arise from one game to the next. I don't really consider it a grind at all. MMPORGs are where the true grinding occurs.
justicezyx 10y ago
TBH blz neglects war3 because they are riding the wow cash cow. War3 has always had a healthy community. In China war3 community was the pincle of any gaming community in history. Blz stops releasing balancing patch after 1.23, not sure exactly. Then the games all become identical. The players dwindles. Most go to war3 DotA. Even then blz had a chance to capture the next big thing in their ecosystem. They neglected it. War3 has been a total disappointment for me personally. War3 game is way more entertaining imho. Blz really advanced the state of art of RTS by mixing traditional RTS with RPG elements (I bet it's not blz invented). The graphics shows a good presentation appealing to showing to large crowd. Sadly they squandered the golden opportunity...
urda 10y ago
Your line of reasoning makes zero sense. In a single comment you manage to claim MOBA type games are "Pointless and boring repetitive." but then celebrate RTS-style games which have similar mechanics to MOBAs. > I prefer real games. FWIW MOBA's and TD style games are real games.

cjslep 10y ago

Re, the community: Early on riot was horrible at community management. They fired Bobaganoosh, eliminated all RP aspects of League by cutting out descriptions, stories, and the JoJ! A lot of people started to flee, and when Riot realized it, they promoted Nikita from intern to the posterchild female that gamer guys oogled. Around that time, before I quit playing I angrily sent an email how Riot was killing their community and needed to do some sort of "Summoner Highlight" segment to promote their fans that care. Nikasaur picked up on that idea or already had it and started showcasing summoners, which was cool. I'm glad they've moved on and up from that. Jax dodge best dodge.

Thaxll 10y ago

Riot try hard to be the new Blizzard but it won't work, they have just one game which is very popular but it's nothing compare to Starcraft / Warcraft universe in term of quality. I really don't like MOBA ( HoTS included ) it's the type of game that killed RTS / MMO.

ggregoire 10y ago
> Riot try hard to be the new Blizzard In what way?
Kiro 10y ago
Are you aware that Riot Games is wholly owned by Tencent? Not disagreeing with you but they're part of a much bigger picture. Tencent even owns 12% or something of Blizzard.

j_s 10y ago

I don't think there is even a comparison between Riot/LoL vs. Valve/Dota2 when it comes to esports prize pools (Dota2 3x's LoL?)... Blizz is throwing a lot of money around too but it feels desperate. Perhaps the deficit demonstrates Riot's skill in maintaining their community?

NamTaf 10y ago

How they listen to their community? It took literally years for a sandbox mode and replays to be implemented, both of which the community carried on about for ages. For a game that wants to grow in professional competitive circles, those features are pretty damn fundamental and it blows my mind that they took this long to exist. I'd also argue that they're not too keen to try new things, given that even the devs themselves intentionally pigeonhole champions into a strict set of roles [1], something that has resulted in a relatively stale meta (another frequent complaint about the game from some circles). In their defence, this sort of locked-down style of meta evidently works for a large number of players, so I understand why they don't rock the boat on that regard. [1]: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/dev-blog-classes-subclasses http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/...

tomwilson 10y ago
Dota has always been much more interesting to me. It's like a sandbox full of overpowered stuff that they leave for the community to figure out how to best exploit. And lol is like yep this patch you will use these champions and you will play them in this manner. And if you don't you will be punished heavily by other players for not playing "correctly".
- NamTaf 10y ago
  I say it without any understatement that Icefrog is probably the best game-balancing developer ever.

Accacin 10y ago

I'm not so sure. They've banned players for not playing the game how they've decided that you need to play the game.