8 ms·

One of my friends in the military has described to me the role of "acceptable racism", and I find it noteworthy. Many stories he has are of people teasing each

by peterlk 10y ago

One of my friends in the military has described to me the role of "acceptable racism", and I find it noteworthy. Many stories he has are of people teasing each other about race. Most of the conversations would be wholly unacceptable in civilian life, but there is a required camaraderie in the military that creates an undertone of understanding and respect. That is, the missing feature of civilian life that prevents this is the implicit understanding that "if shit happens, I've got your back". The "media" (in quotes because that term continues to grow in breadth) is largely to blame for the toxic culture around diversity of thought and respect for those with different experiences than oneself. It manufactures fear and outrage. People cling to fear and outrage, and the first step to fixing self-selecting segregation is to combat uneducated fear and outrage. I don't mean to say that we all need to love each other and get along, but we do need to engage, and not use headlines/taglines/tweets to inform our outrage at one another.

dsp1234 10y ago
the role of "acceptable racism" Coming from experience, there is no alternative to "accepting" racism (or sexism) in the military. If a superior officer or enlisted personnel makes a racist/sexist joke directly at me, I had no option but to take it. Then the others in the platoon see that's perfectly acceptable, and they do it to. Any criticism of this "acceptable" behavior is brutally handled as being as a morale killer (notwithstanding my own morale), and can be responded with everything from minor shunning (no help up a difficult sand hill), through medium consequences (being left alone on post, then blamed by the others for abandoning post, leading to disciplinary action), all the way through courts martial for trumped up charges (because it's your word vs the superior officer's). implicit understanding that "if shit happens, I've got your back" Note that this is generally explicit. Unfortunately, it can be more like, "If we're in the field, and shit happens, I got your back, because otherwise we both die, but when we're back at base, you're on your own". Make no mistake, that "undertone of understanding and respect" comes at a cost, just as many other social circles, it is concreted by pushing out "the other".
- chrisseaton 10y ago
  > If a superior officer or enlisted personnel makes a racist/sexist joke directly at me, I had no option but to take it You could report it to their commander. If they don't listen, then report it to their commander, and so on. You could also report it to your named equality officer (that's a UK thing, probably US as well if that's where you're from), or the padre. Formations also have their own equality officers and padres, so you can go out of the unit if you need to.
  - bilbo0s 10y ago
    In the US we, generally, make Chaplains available. They are a good option for this sort of thing. Though I would have to agree with dsp1234's overall assessment of the situation with respect to racism and sexism in the military. It is what it is. But there is someone you can speak with about it.
  - GFK_of_xmaspast 10y ago
    > You could report it to their commander. If they don't listen, then report it to their commander, and so on. Sounds like a great way to get retaliated against.
maxxxxx 10y ago
We are a pretty diverse group at work and we do a lot of teasing with racial stereotypes. I think it's a lot of fun as long as there is an underlying level of respect. This is much better than the thought policing a lot of people do. Edit: You also learn a lot about each other this way. A Latino person who grew in an inner city has a different lifestory than someone grew up in the Midwest and it's nice to hear that.
- iamdave 10y ago
  I think it's a lot of fun as long as there is an underlying level of respect. This is much better than the thought policing a lot of people do. Fun? For whom??? Even among my closest friends I have no time, nor the patience to entertain or accept any amount of racism or racist thought. I tend to think of it less as "thought-policing" and view it more along the lines of "You're my friend and you're carrying about with behavior born from an established history where the roots of that very behavior resulted in people like me (Black people) being treated as second-class at best, sub-human at worst". A few of them every now and then try to sneak in a black joke when in company and we're having drinks, joking about various absurdities in the world and believe it or not but my friends know me well enough to know all I have to do is glare at them in a certain way-when that glare comes out they know "Okay that comment crosses a line". You may consider it extreme or a bit "much" because to you it's "a lot of fun", and that's certainly your prerogative but after a lifetime trying to prove not just to myself but people I work with that I am more than my skin color ...well, any amounts of behavior that bucks against that is not any shade of fun, and for someone who embodies the spirit of transcending treating race as something so cavalier, to me it definitely isn't "thought policing". It's asking to be treated like my lived condition matters as much as yours so as not to be reduced to a damn punchline. (Tangent: https://www.usingenglish.com/reference/idioms/death+of+a+thousand+cuts.html https://www.usingenglish.com/reference/idioms/death+of+a+tho...)
  - maxxxxx 10y ago
    From my experience most ethnic groups or countries have some quirky traditions and habits. Germans have weird/funny habits and beliefs, Austrians do, Hispanic people do and all other groups of people do. I have no problem with people asking me what's up with Germans running around naked in parks in Munich or how I feel about the Nazi time and I like to talk to Indians how crazy I think their traffic is or what the deal is with arranged marriage. To me that's showing respect because we treat each other like real people and not some fragile beings that are offended all the time.
tomdell 10y ago
Regarding racism in the military, I encourage you to read the story of Danny Chen - http://nymag.com/news/features/danny-chen-2012-1/ http://nymag.com/news/features/danny-chen-2012-1/ "Acceptable racism" kills.
sandworm101 10y ago
It isnt just racism. Sexism is also on the rise. I blame the post-9/11 soldier cult. Soldiers are placed on an increasingly higher shelf. Thier actions are seen as so essential as to be above lay judgement. At a large scale that lack of checks leads to war crimes and other evils, but at an individual scale it gives rise to sexism and racism. Young soldiers come to see their every action as either sanctioned or beyond the standards of public norms. That needs to he quashed. The canadian military, after several incidents including one base commander/serial killer (google that, it was CFB Trenton) is actively going after sexism and other abuse. Thier second in command was recently suspended over what is presumed to be an abuse allegation. The message is that soldiers actions will be scrutinized to the same or greater extent than civilians, not less. The US needs to follow thier lead by cracking down asap.
voxic11 10y ago
That "if shit happens, I've got your back" is so missing from civilian life is what has been so destructive to our societies. We are actually all in this together as a country, and every day our fates grow more entwined as a world, yet we allow ourselves to be divided in so many ways. We need to find a new way to build trust rather then only destroying it as the news media has done. Maybe the problem is of timescales. In the past a lack of trust would spell disaster in short order. The same is true in your example, in the military trust of your fellow soldier is required for survival. But today societies have grown strong and large enough that some can foreseeably survive for a generation or more without widespread trust. So the incentive for individuals to be trustworthy in the broadest sense has diminished immensely.

by peterlk 10y ago

dsp1234 10y ago

the role of "acceptable racism" Coming from experience, there is no alternative to "accepting" racism (or sexism) in the military. If a superior officer or enlisted personnel makes a racist/sexist joke directly at me, I had no option but to take it. Then the others in the platoon see that's perfectly acceptable, and they do it to. Any criticism of this "acceptable" behavior is brutally handled as being as a morale killer (notwithstanding my own morale), and can be responded with everything from minor shunning (no help up a difficult sand hill), through medium consequences (being left alone on post, then blamed by the others for abandoning post, leading to disciplinary action), all the way through courts martial for trumped up charges (because it's your word vs the superior officer's). implicit understanding that "if shit happens, I've got your back" Note that this is generally explicit. Unfortunately, it can be more like, "If we're in the field, and shit happens, I got your back, because otherwise we both die, but when we're back at base, you're on your own". Make no mistake, that "undertone of understanding and respect" comes at a cost, just as many other social circles, it is concreted by pushing out "the other".

chrisseaton 10y ago
> If a superior officer or enlisted personnel makes a racist/sexist joke directly at me, I had no option but to take it You could report it to their commander. If they don't listen, then report it to their commander, and so on. You could also report it to your named equality officer (that's a UK thing, probably US as well if that's where you're from), or the padre. Formations also have their own equality officers and padres, so you can go out of the unit if you need to.
- bilbo0s 10y ago
  In the US we, generally, make Chaplains available. They are a good option for this sort of thing. Though I would have to agree with dsp1234's overall assessment of the situation with respect to racism and sexism in the military. It is what it is. But there is someone you can speak with about it.
- GFK_of_xmaspast 10y ago
  > You could report it to their commander. If they don't listen, then report it to their commander, and so on. Sounds like a great way to get retaliated against.

maxxxxx 10y ago

We are a pretty diverse group at work and we do a lot of teasing with racial stereotypes. I think it's a lot of fun as long as there is an underlying level of respect. This is much better than the thought policing a lot of people do. Edit: You also learn a lot about each other this way. A Latino person who grew in an inner city has a different lifestory than someone grew up in the Midwest and it's nice to hear that.

iamdave 10y ago
I think it's a lot of fun as long as there is an underlying level of respect. This is much better than the thought policing a lot of people do. Fun? For whom??? Even among my closest friends I have no time, nor the patience to entertain or accept any amount of racism or racist thought. I tend to think of it less as "thought-policing" and view it more along the lines of "You're my friend and you're carrying about with behavior born from an established history where the roots of that very behavior resulted in people like me (Black people) being treated as second-class at best, sub-human at worst". A few of them every now and then try to sneak in a black joke when in company and we're having drinks, joking about various absurdities in the world and believe it or not but my friends know me well enough to know all I have to do is glare at them in a certain way-when that glare comes out they know "Okay that comment crosses a line". You may consider it extreme or a bit "much" because to you it's "a lot of fun", and that's certainly your prerogative but after a lifetime trying to prove not just to myself but people I work with that I am more than my skin color ...well, any amounts of behavior that bucks against that is not any shade of fun, and for someone who embodies the spirit of transcending treating race as something so cavalier, to me it definitely isn't "thought policing". It's asking to be treated like my lived condition matters as much as yours so as not to be reduced to a damn punchline. (Tangent: https://www.usingenglish.com/reference/idioms/death+of+a+thousand+cuts.html https://www.usingenglish.com/reference/idioms/death+of+a+tho...)
- maxxxxx 10y ago
  From my experience most ethnic groups or countries have some quirky traditions and habits. Germans have weird/funny habits and beliefs, Austrians do, Hispanic people do and all other groups of people do. I have no problem with people asking me what's up with Germans running around naked in parks in Munich or how I feel about the Nazi time and I like to talk to Indians how crazy I think their traffic is or what the deal is with arranged marriage. To me that's showing respect because we treat each other like real people and not some fragile beings that are offended all the time.

tomdell 10y ago

Regarding racism in the military, I encourage you to read the story of Danny Chen - http://nymag.com/news/features/danny-chen-2012-1/ http://nymag.com/news/features/danny-chen-2012-1/ "Acceptable racism" kills.

sandworm101 10y ago

It isnt just racism. Sexism is also on the rise. I blame the post-9/11 soldier cult. Soldiers are placed on an increasingly higher shelf. Thier actions are seen as so essential as to be above lay judgement. At a large scale that lack of checks leads to war crimes and other evils, but at an individual scale it gives rise to sexism and racism. Young soldiers come to see their every action as either sanctioned or beyond the standards of public norms. That needs to he quashed. The canadian military, after several incidents including one base commander/serial killer (google that, it was CFB Trenton) is actively going after sexism and other abuse. Thier second in command was recently suspended over what is presumed to be an abuse allegation. The message is that soldiers actions will be scrutinized to the same or greater extent than civilians, not less. The US needs to follow thier lead by cracking down asap.

voxic11 10y ago

That "if shit happens, I've got your back" is so missing from civilian life is what has been so destructive to our societies. We are actually all in this together as a country, and every day our fates grow more entwined as a world, yet we allow ourselves to be divided in so many ways. We need to find a new way to build trust rather then only destroying it as the news media has done. Maybe the problem is of timescales. In the past a lack of trust would spell disaster in short order. The same is true in your example, in the military trust of your fellow soldier is required for survival. But today societies have grown strong and large enough that some can foreseeably survive for a generation or more without widespread trust. So the incentive for individuals to be trustworthy in the broadest sense has diminished immensely.