5 ms·

I remember learning about how in its early days, Singapore forced integration in its HDB flats (most of sg's population live in such flats). After attempts at i

I remember learning about how in its early days, Singapore forced integration in its HDB flats (most of sg's population live in such flats). After attempts at integration in the US, we had white flight and now this as mentioned in the article, while sg is probably the model multicultural society. I hate it because I am anti-authoritarian as most Americans are, but it's interesting to see the differences in results. Regardless, it's not like multicultural/diverse America is a failure, we are, for example, much more diverse and respecting of other cultures as say Japan or Korea.

tomjen3 10y ago
If my neighbor is poor or black or gay, I have no or little reason to care; if my neighbor is involved in petty crime or is causing a nuisance I want nothing to do with him. In general black people are/were poorer and poor people (regardless of gender) are more likely to be involved in crime. My suspicious is that Singapore was able to integrate because they are also super though on crime and the whites who were racists couldn't go anywhere else and so had to deal, while those whites who weren't racists didn't have to deal with increased crime. Alternatively Singapores reputation as a model multicultural society isn't as true as it seems.
- tptacek 10y ago
  It's interesting how you've followed not one but two lossy indirections here to get to your (implied) comfort with ostracizing black people. (If I've misjudged the subtext, please both let me know any accept my apologies in advance!)
  - tomjen3 10y ago
    I see that I wrote regardless of gender, which should have been regardless of race. I don't personally have any issues with people based on the color of their skin, but it would be mindlessly stupid to assume that was generally the case that long ago, when it is not even the case now.
splintercell 10y ago
> I remember learning about how in its early days, Singapore forced integration in its HDB flats (most of sg's population live in such flats). After attempts at integration in the US, we had white flight and now this as mentioned in the article, while sg is probably the model multicultural society. Have you ever met Singaporeans? My best from college was from Singapore (of Indian origin), from what he told me, it's a very culturally segregated society. Keep in mind Singapore supports English, Tamil, Chinese and Malay. Ethnic Malays and Tamils will not learn Mandarin unless they really need to, and govt push for Mandarin could only lead to more resentment among these ethnolinguistic minorities. Singapore is not a democracy, so that's another reason why you can't or won't see the problems of the society just from the surface. When the govt forces these measures on the society, the end result is never pretty. When immigrants come to America, they integrate at their own pace. If I came to America with my family, chances are I'd have spoken my mother tongue for a lot longer than I did. I switched to English (speaking, reading, writing, and thinking) within the first two years. My wife on the other hand who came here with her family, she spoke a lot of Russian until she married me (nearly 18 years after being in US). Not just that, her family now speaks a lot more English (and a lot better). Whenever govt tries to 'impose' integration, people feel threatened that someone else is trying to steal their stuff (in this case, their culture, their identity), whereas under freedom they willingly do things differently, they willingly adopt other values or give away their identity. President Charles Heston couldn't have sold as many guns as President Obama did. Because of Obama, people suddenly feel that Second Amendment is very precious. If your son does not have any friends, then by kidnapping some kids from his class and forcing them to attend your son's birthday party won't make them be friends with your son, instead it would simply make them resent him more.
- noobermin 10y ago
  My SO is singaporean. I will admit I've never lived there for more than a month, but I plan on moving there to live with her after I finish my PhD. I don't know what you mean by "very culturally segregated," my experience there the couple of times I've been there is it's not as integrated as say it sounds like it was in the 60's, but it is significantly more diverse and integrated than it is here in the US. Mostly, people of different cultures do interact with each other quite a bit and there is a level of comfort the different races have which each other which is not the case in the US. This is just me, but I feel more comfortable there. It may sound silly, but people have a nicer and less judgemental stare than what I get in certain neighborhoods in the US. Also, regarding their authoritarianism, what I've learned from my gf is that it just is their culture to be more submissive to authority. I did not get this sense that everyone was on the edge of their seats to start a racewar or revolution or that there were issues "beneath the surface." A couple of people complain about foreigners, but that is mainly non-singaporeans of all races, not really "those Indians" or "those Malays." I do agree on cultural ground though that an authoritarian state would be counter-productive for the US, as I alluded to earlier.
bluthru 10y ago
>Regardless, it's not like multicultural/diverse America is a failure Increased diversity correlates with a reduction in life satisfaction, national wealth, and life expectancy: http://thealternativehypothesis.org/index.php/2016/11/30/what-diverse-countries-really-look-like/ http://thealternativehypothesis.org/index.php/2016/11/30/wha...
- disordinary 10y ago
  Correlation vs Causation. I googled the list of the most ethnically diverse countries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_ranked_by_ethnic_and_cultural_diversity_level https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_ranked_by_et... You don't think that having an average income of $1 - $2 thousand a year and living in some of the most dangerous and least developed countries in the world has anything to do with wealth, life satisfaction, and expectancy? I also notice that the most happy countries in the world are all significantly more diverse than the US, so it would appear that the US needs to double it's diversity index in order to crack the top ten of happy countries if we go by the logic of that hateful and biassed site. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report
  - flubert 10y ago
    >I also notice that the most happy countries in the world are all significantly more diverse than the US Am I reading the chart wrong? Or do you have a definition for "diversity". At first glance it doesn't look like it would be racial diversity. When one of your countries has a popular "avoid accidental incest" app. http://www.wired.co.uk/article/iceland-incest-app http://www.wired.co.uk/article/iceland-incest-app
    - disordinary 10y ago
      Iceland is an outlier because the entire country is very isolated and has the population of a small city. The point I was trying to make is other factors than diversity skew those statistics, not that diverse countries are happier. I was being facetious. The website that was posted tries to find negative statistics to perpetuate it's agenda and doesn't bother to quantify the information or look for other causes, it's closed minded, hateful, selfish, and harmful.

tomjen3 10y ago

If my neighbor is poor or black or gay, I have no or little reason to care; if my neighbor is involved in petty crime or is causing a nuisance I want nothing to do with him. In general black people are/were poorer and poor people (regardless of gender) are more likely to be involved in crime. My suspicious is that Singapore was able to integrate because they are also super though on crime and the whites who were racists couldn't go anywhere else and so had to deal, while those whites who weren't racists didn't have to deal with increased crime. Alternatively Singapores reputation as a model multicultural society isn't as true as it seems.

tptacek 10y ago
It's interesting how you've followed not one but two lossy indirections here to get to your (implied) comfort with ostracizing black people. (If I've misjudged the subtext, please both let me know any accept my apologies in advance!)
- tomjen3 10y ago
  I see that I wrote regardless of gender, which should have been regardless of race. I don't personally have any issues with people based on the color of their skin, but it would be mindlessly stupid to assume that was generally the case that long ago, when it is not even the case now.

splintercell 10y ago

> I remember learning about how in its early days, Singapore forced integration in its HDB flats (most of sg's population live in such flats). After attempts at integration in the US, we had white flight and now this as mentioned in the article, while sg is probably the model multicultural society. Have you ever met Singaporeans? My best from college was from Singapore (of Indian origin), from what he told me, it's a very culturally segregated society. Keep in mind Singapore supports English, Tamil, Chinese and Malay. Ethnic Malays and Tamils will not learn Mandarin unless they really need to, and govt push for Mandarin could only lead to more resentment among these ethnolinguistic minorities. Singapore is not a democracy, so that's another reason why you can't or won't see the problems of the society just from the surface. When the govt forces these measures on the society, the end result is never pretty. When immigrants come to America, they integrate at their own pace. If I came to America with my family, chances are I'd have spoken my mother tongue for a lot longer than I did. I switched to English (speaking, reading, writing, and thinking) within the first two years. My wife on the other hand who came here with her family, she spoke a lot of Russian until she married me (nearly 18 years after being in US). Not just that, her family now speaks a lot more English (and a lot better). Whenever govt tries to 'impose' integration, people feel threatened that someone else is trying to steal their stuff (in this case, their culture, their identity), whereas under freedom they willingly do things differently, they willingly adopt other values or give away their identity. President Charles Heston couldn't have sold as many guns as President Obama did. Because of Obama, people suddenly feel that Second Amendment is very precious. If your son does not have any friends, then by kidnapping some kids from his class and forcing them to attend your son's birthday party won't make them be friends with your son, instead it would simply make them resent him more.

noobermin 10y ago
My SO is singaporean. I will admit I've never lived there for more than a month, but I plan on moving there to live with her after I finish my PhD. I don't know what you mean by "very culturally segregated," my experience there the couple of times I've been there is it's not as integrated as say it sounds like it was in the 60's, but it is significantly more diverse and integrated than it is here in the US. Mostly, people of different cultures do interact with each other quite a bit and there is a level of comfort the different races have which each other which is not the case in the US. This is just me, but I feel more comfortable there. It may sound silly, but people have a nicer and less judgemental stare than what I get in certain neighborhoods in the US. Also, regarding their authoritarianism, what I've learned from my gf is that it just is their culture to be more submissive to authority. I did not get this sense that everyone was on the edge of their seats to start a racewar or revolution or that there were issues "beneath the surface." A couple of people complain about foreigners, but that is mainly non-singaporeans of all races, not really "those Indians" or "those Malays." I do agree on cultural ground though that an authoritarian state would be counter-productive for the US, as I alluded to earlier.

bluthru 10y ago

>Regardless, it's not like multicultural/diverse America is a failure Increased diversity correlates with a reduction in life satisfaction, national wealth, and life expectancy: http://thealternativehypothesis.org/index.php/2016/11/30/what-diverse-countries-really-look-like/ http://thealternativehypothesis.org/index.php/2016/11/30/wha...

disordinary 10y ago
Correlation vs Causation. I googled the list of the most ethnically diverse countries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_ranked_by_ethnic_and_cultural_diversity_level https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_ranked_by_et... You don't think that having an average income of $1 - $2 thousand a year and living in some of the most dangerous and least developed countries in the world has anything to do with wealth, life satisfaction, and expectancy? I also notice that the most happy countries in the world are all significantly more diverse than the US, so it would appear that the US needs to double it's diversity index in order to crack the top ten of happy countries if we go by the logic of that hateful and biassed site. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report
- flubert 10y ago
  >I also notice that the most happy countries in the world are all significantly more diverse than the US Am I reading the chart wrong? Or do you have a definition for "diversity". At first glance it doesn't look like it would be racial diversity. When one of your countries has a popular "avoid accidental incest" app. http://www.wired.co.uk/article/iceland-incest-app http://www.wired.co.uk/article/iceland-incest-app
  - disordinary 10y ago
    Iceland is an outlier because the entire country is very isolated and has the population of a small city. The point I was trying to make is other factors than diversity skew those statistics, not that diverse countries are happier. I was being facetious. The website that was posted tries to find negative statistics to perpetuate it's agenda and doesn't bother to quantify the information or look for other causes, it's closed minded, hateful, selfish, and harmful.