5 ms·

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/fancy-dorms-arent-the-main-reason-tuition-is-skyrocketing/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/fancy-dorms-arent-the-m...

by saboot 10y ago

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/fancy-dorms-arent-the-main-reason-tuition-is-skyrocketing/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/fancy-dorms-arent-the-m... "All of those trends add to the cost of college, but not by that much. At most, about a quarter of the increase in college tuition since 2000 can be attributed to rising faculty salaries, improved amenities and administrative bloat. By comparison, the decline in state support accounts for about three-quarters of the rising cost of college."

dave_sullivan 10y ago
To be fair, that doesn't say anything about the relative efficiency of university spending. It says: a) they've increased their spending on amenities and salaries by about 25% b) they're taking in less money than before (apparently they're receiving 3x less money than they are increasing the budget? So budget increase is 25% of extra costs while funding decrease is 75%?) I suppose it depends what metric we should be judging by. If university generates measurable value for the public (it probably does; having lots of smart people walking around isn't necessarily a bad thing), the next question is "how much money must be spent per unit of said public good?" Of course, no one can really agree on the goal of university or any metrics by which to judge (other than you have to go if you care about your future!), so it's kind of fubar. I'd be willing to bet that they could get away with spending less money. I've been saying this for a while, but sooner or later student debt will lead to a major re-balancing of balance sheets. I'm a big believer in learning for free via the internet; if you have internet access, you've got everything you need to learn anything and contact anybody. Let the university system die a natural death and let's massively lower the cost and expand the reach of education.
- saboot 10y ago
  I had a longer response until I read that you are happy to let universities die off. I agree that MOOCs are great for several fields, but everything is not computer science. Even many engineering fields need the physical lab space to get the most impactful learning done. We are seeing many alternatives to universities arise, which are great, but I REALLY don't see how that translates into letting the world's best higher education system decay into disrepair.
  - halomru 10y ago
    Even computer science would suffer from pure online learning: learning to effectively work in groups, and to design and implement software together is a skill that is trained at university. Remote collaboration is entirely different and less applicable. Add to that the loss of any opportunity for lab work for embedded computing.
    - cableshaft 10y ago
      > computer science would suffer... learning to effectively work in groups At my university, 'working effectively in groups' usually meant one smart kid at the computer in the computer lab doing all the work while 7 other kids swarmed around them and copying what they did as close as possible without triggering the 'plagiarizing' senses of the teacher. I worked alone (in the same computer lab) so I could actually learn and internalize what I was taught, but I'd look around and that was a common sight. A university is not required (and in fact, I'd argue that classwork and grades isn't a good structure for it) in order to figure out how to be effective in a group. Working a single job in fast food taught me more about working in a group than any group project at school or the 'Small Group Communications' class I was required to take for my major.
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
  - tdb7893 10y ago
    Also computer science is conceptually pretty easy as most fields go. Many of my friends are aerospace engineers and their classes were just conceptually way more difficult than mine and learning all that through MOOCs without a lot of support and hands on guidance would be prohibitively difficult.
  - dave_sullivan 10y ago
    > everything is not computer science. Even many engineering fields need the physical lab space to get the most impactful learning done. We are seeing many alternatives to universities arise, which are great, but I REALLY don't see how that translates into letting the world's best higher education system decay into disrepair. Have lab space then, have the government pay for it and schedule times for people who want to use it. Should not be limited to a university's chosen student body; it should be open to anyone that wants to learn. You get much more than that and it gets superfluous. US universities are superfluous to the point of wastefulness. I still say defund them and let them figure it out or shut down. But yes, I understand why this sounds extreme, particularly if you don't share my views of college being a super shit deal for most people (and universities--peddling such shit deals and responding to criticism with moral indignation--are no better than timeshare salesmen).
- itissid 10y ago
  > I'm a big believer in learning for free via the internet; if you have internet access. In many university courses the tuition you pay is to access the network of alumni, faculty. These are(still) vital for Phd to collaborate and MBAs to find work. I am not sure the internet is actually even a partially workable substitute for this important aspect.
- hprotagonist 10y ago
  >I'm a big believer in learning for free via the internet; if you have internet access, you've got everything you need to learn anything... anything, that is, which doesn't need a lab. So much for physics, chemistry, biology, everything that depends on them...
  - mazelife 10y ago
    ...or art and music. Good luck learning to play the violin over the internet.
    - cm2012 10y ago
      That's actually doable with Youtube.
      - WkndTriathlete 10y ago
        I think it's a rare person that can effectively teach themselves anything requiring precise motor control without a coach to watch and give feedback. Doable? Maybe. Effective for the general population? Unlikely.
        mazelife 10y ago
        I don't believe it's even doable. Could I pick up an instrument and learn to noodle around on it from watching YouTube videos for a few weeks? Possibly, although for some instruments I doubt even that's possible. But to attain basic proficiency, much less the level of mastery required to play at a professional level just isn't possible without someone to show you how and to correct you when you're wrong (and thousands and thousands of hours of practice, of course).
        rjsw 10y ago
        I teach myself skiing, I am a qualified coach as well though. Am self taught at computing too.
      - mazelife 10y ago

by saboot 10y ago

dave_sullivan 10y ago

To be fair, that doesn't say anything about the relative efficiency of university spending. It says: a) they've increased their spending on amenities and salaries by about 25% b) they're taking in less money than before (apparently they're receiving 3x less money than they are increasing the budget? So budget increase is 25% of extra costs while funding decrease is 75%?) I suppose it depends what metric we should be judging by. If university generates measurable value for the public (it probably does; having lots of smart people walking around isn't necessarily a bad thing), the next question is "how much money must be spent per unit of said public good?" Of course, no one can really agree on the goal of university or any metrics by which to judge (other than you have to go if you care about your future!), so it's kind of fubar. I'd be willing to bet that they could get away with spending less money. I've been saying this for a while, but sooner or later student debt will lead to a major re-balancing of balance sheets. I'm a big believer in learning for free via the internet; if you have internet access, you've got everything you need to learn anything and contact anybody. Let the university system die a natural death and let's massively lower the cost and expand the reach of education.

saboot 10y ago
I had a longer response until I read that you are happy to let universities die off. I agree that MOOCs are great for several fields, but everything is not computer science. Even many engineering fields need the physical lab space to get the most impactful learning done. We are seeing many alternatives to universities arise, which are great, but I REALLY don't see how that translates into letting the world's best higher education system decay into disrepair.
- halomru 10y ago
  Even computer science would suffer from pure online learning: learning to effectively work in groups, and to design and implement software together is a skill that is trained at university. Remote collaboration is entirely different and less applicable. Add to that the loss of any opportunity for lab work for embedded computing.
  - cableshaft 10y ago
    > computer science would suffer... learning to effectively work in groups At my university, 'working effectively in groups' usually meant one smart kid at the computer in the computer lab doing all the work while 7 other kids swarmed around them and copying what they did as close as possible without triggering the 'plagiarizing' senses of the teacher. I worked alone (in the same computer lab) so I could actually learn and internalize what I was taught, but I'd look around and that was a common sight. A university is not required (and in fact, I'd argue that classwork and grades isn't a good structure for it) in order to figure out how to be effective in a group. Working a single job in fast food taught me more about working in a group than any group project at school or the 'Small Group Communications' class I was required to take for my major.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
- tdb7893 10y ago
  Also computer science is conceptually pretty easy as most fields go. Many of my friends are aerospace engineers and their classes were just conceptually way more difficult than mine and learning all that through MOOCs without a lot of support and hands on guidance would be prohibitively difficult.
- dave_sullivan 10y ago
  > everything is not computer science. Even many engineering fields need the physical lab space to get the most impactful learning done. We are seeing many alternatives to universities arise, which are great, but I REALLY don't see how that translates into letting the world's best higher education system decay into disrepair. Have lab space then, have the government pay for it and schedule times for people who want to use it. Should not be limited to a university's chosen student body; it should be open to anyone that wants to learn. You get much more than that and it gets superfluous. US universities are superfluous to the point of wastefulness. I still say defund them and let them figure it out or shut down. But yes, I understand why this sounds extreme, particularly if you don't share my views of college being a super shit deal for most people (and universities--peddling such shit deals and responding to criticism with moral indignation--are no better than timeshare salesmen).
itissid 10y ago
> I'm a big believer in learning for free via the internet; if you have internet access. In many university courses the tuition you pay is to access the network of alumni, faculty. These are(still) vital for Phd to collaborate and MBAs to find work. I am not sure the internet is actually even a partially workable substitute for this important aspect.
hprotagonist 10y ago
>I'm a big believer in learning for free via the internet; if you have internet access, you've got everything you need to learn anything... anything, that is, which doesn't need a lab. So much for physics, chemistry, biology, everything that depends on them...
- mazelife 10y ago
  ...or art and music. Good luck learning to play the violin over the internet.
  - cm2012 10y ago
    That's actually doable with Youtube.
    - WkndTriathlete 10y ago
      I think it's a rare person that can effectively teach themselves anything requiring precise motor control without a coach to watch and give feedback. Doable? Maybe. Effective for the general population? Unlikely.
      - mazelife 10y ago
        I don't believe it's even doable. Could I pick up an instrument and learn to noodle around on it from watching YouTube videos for a few weeks? Possibly, although for some instruments I doubt even that's possible. But to attain basic proficiency, much less the level of mastery required to play at a professional level just isn't possible without someone to show you how and to correct you when you're wrong (and thousands and thousands of hours of practice, of course).
      - rjsw 10y ago
        I teach myself skiing, I am a qualified coach as well though. Am self taught at computing too.
    - mazelife 10y ago