5 ms·

This all may be true, but I think the more fundamental problem is the ignorance of the average American about how their government works. A former Supreme Cour

by panic 10y ago

This all may be true, but I think the more fundamental problem is the ignorance of the average American about how their government works. A former Supreme Court justice lays it out in this prescient video from 2012: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWcVtWennr0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWcVtWennr0. People are frustrated with their government but don't understand how to fix it.

SerLava 10y ago
The end of that video was disturbing. At least tomorrow I'll wake up to a 30 dollar an hour coal mining job, right?
peterwwillis 10y ago
The argument he's putting forth is so incredibly vapid and simple-minded that it's a stunning indictment of the lack of vision of a supreme court judge into the American zeitgeist. Americans understand the basic concept of the vote. A freaking six year old understands it. There are leaders, and they sycophantically grovel for the favor of the public, which the public gives freely in exchange for the politician promising to give them their hearts' desire. And then the public may or may not get what they want. If the politician cannot appropriately explain the reasons for this, they are dumped and the next sycophant is wrung through. That's about all they know, and all they need to know, because the people should not have to lobby their government in a democracy, the democratic leaders should already know what the people want and achieve it on their behalf, and in general do good for the people. But that is not what happens in America. Here, our political leaders don't serve the people. And the people know that. But the people can't do anything about it. And the reason they can't do anything about it is the people voted their way into this mess. Trying to vote their way out will just result in exactly the same thing. What the former Justice is saying is, the biggest problem in politics and public life is people don't understand how the legislative and judicial and executive processes work. But people do not need to know how this works, they merely need to voice their opinions and vote. And half of the people do vote. The other half don't vote either because they can't, or because they know what the result of voting is. The American democracy in the 20th and 21st century is an artisanal machine which produces a specific output. Votes and labor go in, and money comes out. But the machine is designed to mostly spit out money which can only be used by corporations and rich people; only a small percentage of that comes out in a form usable by the people. The people know their votes are mostly meaningless, but it is their only tangible method left to express their discontent. So they support the system that produces an awful result because it's the only way they can express that the machine produces an awful result. I think the people see this contradiction, and I think this is why so many do not vote: it's like complaining that your shoe hurts and then putting it on again to see how it will fit.
- FooBarWidget 10y ago
  I'm not an American and I don't really understand why you say this. Only a small percentage that the machine produces comes out in a form usable by non-rich people? Then what's, for example, Obamacare, which seems to be a system that finally resembles how health insurance works in many European countries? And isn't that same Obamacare under fire by lots of people who think that the machine shouldn't support the people and that everybody needs to support themselves instead of taking a piece of tax money? I'm more confused than before.
  - belovedeagle 10y ago
    Except that's not how Obamacare works at all! It involves an expansion to Medicaid and Medicare, which are huge failures, and the forcing of healthy Americans into the health insurance market. In fact it has nothing to do with healthcare at all; it only has to do with health "insurance" as if by forcing more money into the system we'll somehow fix it. Because what the American health insurance industry - of which a very small part is healthcare, since even hospitals are putting most of their effort into getting as much money out of the public and private "insurance" schemes as possible - really needs to be "fixed" is more money! I use scare wires around "fixed" because, from the point of view of those running it, the health insurance industry is better than it's ever been.
  - mirimir 10y ago
    No, Obamacare only pretends to resemble European-style healthcare. In fact, it merely forces everyone to sign up with private health insurance companies. Which still take their huge profits.
    - fennecfoxen 10y ago
      Yes, and private health insurance companies have profits so huge that they're pulling out of the insurance markets left and right and saying "sorry, we're just not interested in this business anymore!" Arizona's had it worst – many places there are on their last insurer – but that's just a taste of the phenomenon. The premium hikes are paying for the treatment of the "uninsurable" and chronically ill. Even the profitable for-profit insurers are only running margins of 3%, maybe 4% in a good year. You could turn them all nonprofit and it wouldn't really help premiums. (And people tried! Look at the health-care co-op collapses in Colorado, Iowa, Kentucky, Louisiana, New York, Nevada and Tennessee, and Oregon, as well!)
dnautics 10y ago
the even more relevant problem is the ignorance of the average American about how their banking system works, especially as it quietly steals over decades the marginal value of the working person's dollar and throws it in huge chunks at the feet of the 1% - bankers, through first crack at low interest rates and other more blatant mechanisms like TARP, government contractors, scientific researchers who get to exercise patents on what they're already being paid to do by the public. Of course the government throws some of the most impoverished a bone (with lots of paperwork) and 'redistributes' using taxation to keep the illusion that they are doing something about it.

by panic 10y ago

SerLava 10y ago

The end of that video was disturbing. At least tomorrow I'll wake up to a 30 dollar an hour coal mining job, right?

peterwwillis 10y ago

The argument he's putting forth is so incredibly vapid and simple-minded that it's a stunning indictment of the lack of vision of a supreme court judge into the American zeitgeist. Americans understand the basic concept of the vote. A freaking six year old understands it. There are leaders, and they sycophantically grovel for the favor of the public, which the public gives freely in exchange for the politician promising to give them their hearts' desire. And then the public may or may not get what they want. If the politician cannot appropriately explain the reasons for this, they are dumped and the next sycophant is wrung through. That's about all they know, and all they need to know, because the people should not have to lobby their government in a democracy, the democratic leaders should already know what the people want and achieve it on their behalf, and in general do good for the people. But that is not what happens in America. Here, our political leaders don't serve the people. And the people know that. But the people can't do anything about it. And the reason they can't do anything about it is the people voted their way into this mess. Trying to vote their way out will just result in exactly the same thing. What the former Justice is saying is, the biggest problem in politics and public life is people don't understand how the legislative and judicial and executive processes work. But people do not need to know how this works, they merely need to voice their opinions and vote. And half of the people do vote. The other half don't vote either because they can't, or because they know what the result of voting is. The American democracy in the 20th and 21st century is an artisanal machine which produces a specific output. Votes and labor go in, and money comes out. But the machine is designed to mostly spit out money which can only be used by corporations and rich people; only a small percentage of that comes out in a form usable by the people. The people know their votes are mostly meaningless, but it is their only tangible method left to express their discontent. So they support the system that produces an awful result because it's the only way they can express that the machine produces an awful result. I think the people see this contradiction, and I think this is why so many do not vote: it's like complaining that your shoe hurts and then putting it on again to see how it will fit.

FooBarWidget 10y ago
I'm not an American and I don't really understand why you say this. Only a small percentage that the machine produces comes out in a form usable by non-rich people? Then what's, for example, Obamacare, which seems to be a system that finally resembles how health insurance works in many European countries? And isn't that same Obamacare under fire by lots of people who think that the machine shouldn't support the people and that everybody needs to support themselves instead of taking a piece of tax money? I'm more confused than before.
- belovedeagle 10y ago
  Except that's not how Obamacare works at all! It involves an expansion to Medicaid and Medicare, which are huge failures, and the forcing of healthy Americans into the health insurance market. In fact it has nothing to do with healthcare at all; it only has to do with health "insurance" as if by forcing more money into the system we'll somehow fix it. Because what the American health insurance industry - of which a very small part is healthcare, since even hospitals are putting most of their effort into getting as much money out of the public and private "insurance" schemes as possible - really needs to be "fixed" is more money! I use scare wires around "fixed" because, from the point of view of those running it, the health insurance industry is better than it's ever been.
- mirimir 10y ago
  No, Obamacare only pretends to resemble European-style healthcare. In fact, it merely forces everyone to sign up with private health insurance companies. Which still take their huge profits.
  - fennecfoxen 10y ago
    Yes, and private health insurance companies have profits so huge that they're pulling out of the insurance markets left and right and saying "sorry, we're just not interested in this business anymore!" Arizona's had it worst – many places there are on their last insurer – but that's just a taste of the phenomenon. The premium hikes are paying for the treatment of the "uninsurable" and chronically ill. Even the profitable for-profit insurers are only running margins of 3%, maybe 4% in a good year. You could turn them all nonprofit and it wouldn't really help premiums. (And people tried! Look at the health-care co-op collapses in Colorado, Iowa, Kentucky, Louisiana, New York, Nevada and Tennessee, and Oregon, as well!)

dnautics 10y ago

the even more relevant problem is the ignorance of the average American about how their banking system works, especially as it quietly steals over decades the marginal value of the working person's dollar and throws it in huge chunks at the feet of the 1% - bankers, through first crack at low interest rates and other more blatant mechanisms like TARP, government contractors, scientific researchers who get to exercise patents on what they're already being paid to do by the public. Of course the government throws some of the most impoverished a bone (with lots of paperwork) and 'redistributes' using taxation to keep the illusion that they are doing something about it.