5 ms·

> you must follow it or resign--those are the only options, per your civil service oath. Those aren't your only options. Your other options are to stay in and

by learc83 10y ago

> you must follow it or resign--those are the only options, per your civil service oath. Those aren't your only options. Your other options are to stay in and leak information. Stay in and try to damage the project etc... I don't know what I'd do if I were in the position to damage, delay, or stop something as blatantly unconstitutional as a Muslim registration database, but I hope that I'd be able to muster to the courage to do so. The civil service oath requires you to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic" I understand that constitutionality is determined by the Supreme Court, but if the government attempts to create a Muslim registration, they've crossed the line and it's time to act.

stale2002 10y ago
Then they should have acted 8 years ago, because the "Muslim registery" already exists under Obama
- myrion 10y ago
  Surely you have evidence of this?
  - stale2002 10y ago
    Sure. The program has a name. It is called NSEERS. The info about it is all available publicly.
    - resfirestar 10y ago
      The statements of candidate Trump suggested a system far broader in scope than NSEERS to cover US citizens. The Kobach plan to reinstate NSEERS (it was halted in 2011) would presumably involve more invasive point of entry procedures for more countries. Whichever way it is, the real time to stop NSEERS was when it started in 2002. Since that didn't happen, it didn't stop until 2011. So yes, it is a good time to complain about religious profiling when a new administration is planning to institute it.
- gsch 10y ago
  The registry existed under Obama, but it was created in 2002 after 9/11, partially suspended in 2011, and fully suspended last month [0], though it looks like it remains to be seen whether the suspension will be undone. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Entry-Exit_Registration_System#Removal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Entry-Exit_R...
  - edraferi 10y ago
    Thanks for the link. Looks like that program was only indirectly about religion. It provided a list of countries whose citizens were subject to more intense scrutiny. Most of those countries were majority Muslim, thus most people affected by the program were Muslim. There were successful civil rights complaints about this. Trump, of course, has suggested a much more aggressive and less subtle program that includes an explicit religious test.
  - pc86 10y ago
    NSEERS is not even remotely a Muslim registry. It says if you're from one of five countries or are specifically selected, you have to pass additional scrutiny to enter the US and are subject to additional notification and reporting requirements.
    - stale2002 10y ago
      Well it is effectively the same as what Trump wants to implement. So it is as much of a Muslim registery as his plan. (which, as you argue, is not at all)
      - pc86 10y ago
        No it's not. Trump said he wanted to register people based on their religion. NSEERS says if you're from one of five countries or are individually selected, you have to have additional screening. Also NSEERS doesn't even exist anymore.
- tonetheman 10y ago
  Started with Bush... they should acted before 8 years ago.
hydrogen18 10y ago
As opposed to what, conducting surveillance on basically every citizen in the nation? That was just dandy. But a Muslim registry, now you're going to get all uppity about that?
- davidmr 10y ago
  I'm confused. How did the USDS conduct surveillance on basically every citizen in the nation, or are you painting every US gov't employee with a very, very broad brush?
  - hydrogen18 10y ago
    learc83 used the term "the government" in his post. I would not say that every US government employee is personally responsible for the current surveillance state. But when someone suggest "the government" is about to cross the line, it reeks of bullshit. "The government" (our government in my case) has crossed the line so many times on so many different issues. The citizens never did anything. If the federal government built camps and starting rounding up Muslims or any group, we would do nothing tangible. There would be all sorts of racket made about it, but nothing would come of it. Any suggestion otherwise is just an attempt to bait some sort of discussion that Donald Trump is either the second coming of Adolf Hitler or the herald of the apocalypse. I don't like the man in any way. But where we all these people when Barack Obama decided he had the authority to execute US citizens?
    - artimaeis 10y ago
      > "The citizens never did anything" Snowden pulled the veil on many issues similar to what you're referring to. I'm fairly certain he was a citizen at the time. I'd reference Chelsea Manning, because she acted as a citizen when betraying her oath to the military. I could see arguments against that, though. The government came down hard on both these individuals. It's a damn shame. And please don't take this to be a pro-oppressive-government stance. I'm simply saying that citizens did do something. And every day there are citizens working in thousands of government jobs across the country trying to make the right decision. There's no reason to slight them.

by learc83 10y ago

stale2002 10y ago

Then they should have acted 8 years ago, because the "Muslim registery" already exists under Obama

myrion 10y ago
Surely you have evidence of this?
- stale2002 10y ago
  Sure. The program has a name. It is called NSEERS. The info about it is all available publicly.
  - resfirestar 10y ago
    The statements of candidate Trump suggested a system far broader in scope than NSEERS to cover US citizens. The Kobach plan to reinstate NSEERS (it was halted in 2011) would presumably involve more invasive point of entry procedures for more countries. Whichever way it is, the real time to stop NSEERS was when it started in 2002. Since that didn't happen, it didn't stop until 2011. So yes, it is a good time to complain about religious profiling when a new administration is planning to institute it.
gsch 10y ago
The registry existed under Obama, but it was created in 2002 after 9/11, partially suspended in 2011, and fully suspended last month [0], though it looks like it remains to be seen whether the suspension will be undone. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Entry-Exit_Registration_System#Removal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Entry-Exit_R...
- edraferi 10y ago
  Thanks for the link. Looks like that program was only indirectly about religion. It provided a list of countries whose citizens were subject to more intense scrutiny. Most of those countries were majority Muslim, thus most people affected by the program were Muslim. There were successful civil rights complaints about this. Trump, of course, has suggested a much more aggressive and less subtle program that includes an explicit religious test.
- pc86 10y ago
  NSEERS is not even remotely a Muslim registry. It says if you're from one of five countries or are specifically selected, you have to pass additional scrutiny to enter the US and are subject to additional notification and reporting requirements.
  - stale2002 10y ago
    Well it is effectively the same as what Trump wants to implement. So it is as much of a Muslim registery as his plan. (which, as you argue, is not at all)
    - pc86 10y ago
      No it's not. Trump said he wanted to register people based on their religion. NSEERS says if you're from one of five countries or are individually selected, you have to have additional screening. Also NSEERS doesn't even exist anymore.
tonetheman 10y ago
Started with Bush... they should acted before 8 years ago.

hydrogen18 10y ago

As opposed to what, conducting surveillance on basically every citizen in the nation? That was just dandy. But a Muslim registry, now you're going to get all uppity about that?

davidmr 10y ago
I'm confused. How did the USDS conduct surveillance on basically every citizen in the nation, or are you painting every US gov't employee with a very, very broad brush?
- hydrogen18 10y ago
  learc83 used the term "the government" in his post. I would not say that every US government employee is personally responsible for the current surveillance state. But when someone suggest "the government" is about to cross the line, it reeks of bullshit. "The government" (our government in my case) has crossed the line so many times on so many different issues. The citizens never did anything. If the federal government built camps and starting rounding up Muslims or any group, we would do nothing tangible. There would be all sorts of racket made about it, but nothing would come of it. Any suggestion otherwise is just an attempt to bait some sort of discussion that Donald Trump is either the second coming of Adolf Hitler or the herald of the apocalypse. I don't like the man in any way. But where we all these people when Barack Obama decided he had the authority to execute US citizens?
  - artimaeis 10y ago
    > "The citizens never did anything" Snowden pulled the veil on many issues similar to what you're referring to. I'm fairly certain he was a citizen at the time. I'd reference Chelsea Manning, because she acted as a citizen when betraying her oath to the military. I could see arguments against that, though. The government came down hard on both these individuals. It's a damn shame. And please don't take this to be a pro-oppressive-government stance. I'm simply saying that citizens did do something. And every day there are citizens working in thousands of government jobs across the country trying to make the right decision. There's no reason to slight them.