6 ms·

Is there a historical precedent for those above the peasants, but still below the king, to constantly rationalize and serve as king apologists? I notice an inte

by tabeth 10y ago

Is there a historical precedent for those above the peasants, but still below the king, to constantly rationalize and serve as king apologists? I notice an interesting trend with a large chunk of the discussion being centered towards why [rich person's] [behavior] is not [as bad] as you think. Maybe it's because the king enables those above the peasants to retain that position? It's really interesting, actually. Kind of a (10th-to) last place aversion-like response. [1] [1] http://www.nber.org/papers/w17234 http://www.nber.org/papers/w17234 An interesting quote. Notice how the behavior I describe is actually the opposite of this. It's kind of Stockholm syndrome like, actually (people on the top end, but not anywhere near the top, wanting to maintain the status of those at the top, in hopes of getting their themselves). > Last-place aversion – and the accompanying lack of support for redistribution – is particularly pronounced when people near the bottom of the distribution have their attention focused on keeping the people below them down, rather than on redistributing wealth from those at the top. [2] [2] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/occupy-wall-street-psychology/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/occupy-wall-stree...

cooper12 10y ago
I have some quotes that might provide insight: > Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat, but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires. - purportedly by John Steinbeck > It is a crime for an American to be poor, even though America is a nation of poor. Every other nation has folk traditions of men who were poor but extremely wise and virtuous, and therefore more estimable than anyone with power and gold. No such tales are told by the American poor. They mock themselves and glorify their betters. The meanest eating or drinking establishment, owned by a man who is himself poor, is very likely to have a sign on its wall asking this cruel question: “If you’re so smart, why ain’t you rich? > Americans, like human beings everywhere, believe many things that are obviously untrue. Their most destructive untruth is that it is very easy for any American to make money. They will not acknowledge how in fact hard money is to come by, and, therefore, those who have no money blame and blame and blame themselves. This inward blame has been a treasure for the rich and powerful, who have had to do less for their poor, publicly and privately, than any other ruling class since, say, Napoleonic times. - Kurt Vonnegut > If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you. - Lyndon B. Johnson
- ryandrake 10y ago
  An old article, I'd like to see the results today now that America has gone through the latest recessions. But from 2003, "Nineteen percent of Americans say they are in the richest 1 percent and a further 20 percent expect to be someday." [1] 1: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/12/opinion/the-triumph-of-hope-over-self-interest.html http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/12/opinion/the-triumph-of-hop...
  - cooper12 10y ago
    Wow thanks for sharing. I'm glad to see that an apocryphal quote can have a source backing it up empirically.
    - refurb 10y ago
      Would you rather have 0% ever thinking they'll be rich? That sounds like a terrible place to live.
      - cooper12 10y ago
        There's nothing wrong with having aspirations per se. The issue is when these aspirations lead people to identify more with the upper class rather than their own class and voting against their own interests. For a very recent example, see the case of people who depended on the Affordable Care Act regretting voting for Trump. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/trump-voters-didnt-take-him-literally-on-obamacare-oops/2016/12/20/46ef3cae-c6f3-11e6-bf4b-2c064d32a4bf_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/trump-voters-didnt-t...) Also, you don't see something seriously wrong with the statement "Nineteen percent of Americans say they are in the richest 1 percent"?
        matt4077 10y ago
        I'm as far out left as they come, but I cringe at this "voting against their interests" argument. There are millions voting against their (economic) interests when they vote democratic as well.
explainthisth 10y ago
While we're being condescending, it seems like some people have Zuckerberg derangement syndrome. Guess Aaron Sorkin's quasi-fictional biopic was effective. I don't see how anyone who reads this article will think Zuckerberg is hurting anybody. A bunch of people who previously owned useless fractional shares are going to get some cash.
- fweespeech 10y ago
  The "fair price" is what the current owner is willing to sell it for and not the price set an auction where only Zuckerberg and the original owner would be willing to bid. This is basically employing eminent domain to strength Zuckerberg's little fiefdom.
- TaylorAlexander 10y ago
  It's a perfectly rational thing for Zuckerberg to do. It is also absolutely a case of an ultra elite (basically a "king" of today) white man is availing himself of state (ultimately, military) support to force native Hawaiian people off their lands. You made an error in your comment. You said their shares were useless. Clearly, they have a use to the individuals in question - both the natives and Zuckerberg.
  - kodfodrasz 10y ago
    This is far mode complicated than the privilieged white man narrateive you used here. I don't like this topic, but when someone talks about this I'd like to know their opinion on this: - what is his/her ethnicity - what ethnicity does he/she think jews have. Why I raise these questions? Becase if someone talks about this topic this is pretty sensite, and also pretty context sensitive. Do "privilieged white" people consider jewish people also "privilieged white" people, or of a different ethnicity? Do jewish people consider themselves "privilieged white" people? Do other ethnicities consider them as the same? What ethnicity does Mr Zuckerberg consider himself? His is of jewish herritage, as far as I know. This "white people" narrative is pretty destructive, but also is an overgeneralization, and just as destructive as overdifferentiation. I beleive both are a form of destructive, retrogade racism which has crept into Public language lately and is plaguing the thinking of people and destroying the progress of the last half cetury. I don't blame you for using it, and I don't beleive you wanted to say anything nasty, nor do I want to do so, just formulated some questions the topic raises in me.
ryandrake 10y ago
Simple divide-and-conquer. The 1% retain/grow their power by convincing 49.5% of us that the other 49.5% of us are the bad guys.
- meanduck 10y ago
  Your math is little wrong. 1%: The Politicians, Bureaucrats & Friends. 19%: The Rich paying with money. 80%: The Poor paying with freedom. Guess who takes shelter in tax havens like rich but at the same time pretend to be altruistic to/for poor.
  - sulam 10y ago
    Erm, not to be all factual and shit, but politicians generally aren't in the 1% until after they're out of office. There are exceptions of course (the Clintons, because of the sheer length of service and variety of positions they've each held) but being a politician doesn't actually pay that well. There are perks, but you won't get into the 1% on perks. The 1% is primarily made up of people who have enough money that most of their income is passive, in the form of investment income, dividends, etc. Also it's worth pointing out that there's a couple ways of calculating whether or not you're in the 1% -- you can do it based on annual salary or net worth. The people who are _really_ in the 1% are there based on net worth, and it takes almost $9M in assets to get there. I'd break your list down into 4 categories: The 1% who can fund a politician's campaign, primarily through super PACs and other funding mechanisms that don't come with limits on the size of a donation. The people who may look and feel wealthy (they may have a fancy car, a job that pays well, but also a lot of expenses and haven't passed the point where their money has given them enough leverage to trade it for time -- instead they're still trading time for money). These people are the next 5% or so, with a minimum net worth of $2M. They are also likely to be the scapegoats for the true 1%. Next up are _some_ politicians (the ones with real influence -- your local mayor may or may not count, depending on the size of the city you live in. Your governor may or may not count, depending on the state you live in. Your House representative may or may not count, depending on how long they've been in office, which party currently controls the House and what committees they're on. There's your Senators -- hey! they probably count!) These are the 1%ers of politians -- the rest of them don't make a ton of money _and_ don't have a ton of influence. These guys are hoping to get cushy boardships, lobbying jobs, speakers fees, etc -- stuff that they're well-trained for by being a career politician. Then you have everyone else... Roughly 90% of Americans, just trying to keep their heads above water, hoping they have enough money to pay the mortgage, the rent, their kid's college education, the electric bill, or what-have-you. They are translating their time into money, but have almost no economic mobility -- meaning they have almost no chance to join 1%, and will only join the 5% at retirement at best.
nickff 10y ago
You are making many arguments on the 'philosophical anarchist' spectrum. Michael Huemer's "The Problem of Political Authority" may be of interest to you.
meanduck 10y ago
> Maybe it's because the king enables those above the peasants to retain that position? Surely its nothing compared to Govts with multi-trillion dollars in (extorted) revenue because thats what have been my observation.
olalonde 10y ago
I think it's more of a knee jerk reaction to the "wealthy people are evil" narrative that is quite common in the media. Some people just read the headline and immediately assume it's another instance of this, whether they are right or wrong. Personally, this kind of article doesn't "gratify my intellectual curiosity" and I don't think it belongs on HN.
- andrei_says_ 10y ago
  Of course, wealthy people are not evil. But maybe it just happens that in order to become wealthy, people more often than not have to repeatedly choose wealth over generosity, exploit other people, take advantage of resources that less privileged ones pay for without explicit consent. Also, it often happens that people who are already wealthy and possess more than what they and their children would need for comfortable royalty-level lives, continue accumulating wealth, focusing their disproportionally large power in more exploitation, more privilege, more wealth. I'm not sure where the line between not quite evil and ok, clearly evil lies but sometimes I wonder if accumulating a lot of wealth while creating more and more suffering for many other humans is a healthy behavior.
  - Hondor 10y ago
    The idea that rich people got rich because they screwed other people over is quite common but also a made up generalization. It's an excuse that people who worry about their own socioeconomic status make to feel better about themselves. "I'm poor but at least I'm not evil like those rich people.". Instead of searching for reasons why rich people are evil, why not just be happy with your own life? You don't need to be rich. Stop worrying about status and get on with whatever you enjoy.
    - ue_ 10y ago
      >The idea that rich people got rich because they screwed other people over is quite common but also a made up generalization. Many people are wealthy because they have exploited the labour of others, exactly as any other commodity might be exploited. I would say this is the biggest screw-over: this great capitalist machine.
snowpanda 10y ago
>I notice an interesting trend with a large chunk of the discussion being centered towards why [rich person's] [behavior] is not [as bad] as you think. As opposed to inherently thinking anything rich people do must be evil? And that all your problems are caused by the "1%" ? Maybe most people just take responsibility for their own lives and their finances.
- andrei_says_ 10y ago
  It's a great idea in a level playing field. But if half of the people are born on someone else's land, have to work multiple jobs to cover basic expenses, have no chance of getting good education without becoming debt slaves and get thrown under the bus if they ever get sick, then maybe, just maybe, the expression "personal responsibility" has completely different meaning for them from the meaning that the people born as land owners, and can enjoy free* (or very affordable) education and healthcare as well doors opening for them throughout their whole lives because of their name or relations. (For a household making $2m or more per year, a $60k/year education is close to free.)
- HeavenBanned 10y ago
  Or in other words: "Let them eat cake." Your proposed solution is not feasible with the massively widening gap between the rich and poor in this nation.
amasad 10y ago
Yes, in socialist terms it's us "the intelligentsia" -- the educated people "engaged in the complex mental labours that critique, guide, and lead in shaping the culture and politics of their society". Take Noam Chomsky's comment for example: "The system operates through a complex of inducements, privileges, class interests, etc., relying on the tendency of much of the intelligentsia to conform to power (while proclaiming their courageous independence of mind), and the unwillingness to endure vilification, lies, and denial of the opportunity to work and publish, as punishment for telling the truth."
matt4077 10y ago
I'm not too fond of psychologising. But if anything, I believe a fondness for "contrarianism" is more likely to be at work.

by tabeth 10y ago

cooper12 10y ago

I have some quotes that might provide insight: > Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat, but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires. - purportedly by John Steinbeck > It is a crime for an American to be poor, even though America is a nation of poor. Every other nation has folk traditions of men who were poor but extremely wise and virtuous, and therefore more estimable than anyone with power and gold. No such tales are told by the American poor. They mock themselves and glorify their betters. The meanest eating or drinking establishment, owned by a man who is himself poor, is very likely to have a sign on its wall asking this cruel question: “If you’re so smart, why ain’t you rich? > Americans, like human beings everywhere, believe many things that are obviously untrue. Their most destructive untruth is that it is very easy for any American to make money. They will not acknowledge how in fact hard money is to come by, and, therefore, those who have no money blame and blame and blame themselves. This inward blame has been a treasure for the rich and powerful, who have had to do less for their poor, publicly and privately, than any other ruling class since, say, Napoleonic times. - Kurt Vonnegut > If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you. - Lyndon B. Johnson

ryandrake 10y ago
An old article, I'd like to see the results today now that America has gone through the latest recessions. But from 2003, "Nineteen percent of Americans say they are in the richest 1 percent and a further 20 percent expect to be someday." [1] 1: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/12/opinion/the-triumph-of-hope-over-self-interest.html http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/12/opinion/the-triumph-of-hop...
- cooper12 10y ago
  Wow thanks for sharing. I'm glad to see that an apocryphal quote can have a source backing it up empirically.
  - refurb 10y ago
    Would you rather have 0% ever thinking they'll be rich? That sounds like a terrible place to live.
    - cooper12 10y ago
      There's nothing wrong with having aspirations per se. The issue is when these aspirations lead people to identify more with the upper class rather than their own class and voting against their own interests. For a very recent example, see the case of people who depended on the Affordable Care Act regretting voting for Trump. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/trump-voters-didnt-take-him-literally-on-obamacare-oops/2016/12/20/46ef3cae-c6f3-11e6-bf4b-2c064d32a4bf_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/trump-voters-didnt-t...) Also, you don't see something seriously wrong with the statement "Nineteen percent of Americans say they are in the richest 1 percent"?
      - matt4077 10y ago
        I'm as far out left as they come, but I cringe at this "voting against their interests" argument. There are millions voting against their (economic) interests when they vote democratic as well.

explainthisth 10y ago

While we're being condescending, it seems like some people have Zuckerberg derangement syndrome. Guess Aaron Sorkin's quasi-fictional biopic was effective. I don't see how anyone who reads this article will think Zuckerberg is hurting anybody. A bunch of people who previously owned useless fractional shares are going to get some cash.

fweespeech 10y ago
The "fair price" is what the current owner is willing to sell it for and not the price set an auction where only Zuckerberg and the original owner would be willing to bid. This is basically employing eminent domain to strength Zuckerberg's little fiefdom.
TaylorAlexander 10y ago
It's a perfectly rational thing for Zuckerberg to do. It is also absolutely a case of an ultra elite (basically a "king" of today) white man is availing himself of state (ultimately, military) support to force native Hawaiian people off their lands. You made an error in your comment. You said their shares were useless. Clearly, they have a use to the individuals in question - both the natives and Zuckerberg.
- kodfodrasz 10y ago
  This is far mode complicated than the privilieged white man narrateive you used here. I don't like this topic, but when someone talks about this I'd like to know their opinion on this: - what is his/her ethnicity - what ethnicity does he/she think jews have. Why I raise these questions? Becase if someone talks about this topic this is pretty sensite, and also pretty context sensitive. Do "privilieged white" people consider jewish people also "privilieged white" people, or of a different ethnicity? Do jewish people consider themselves "privilieged white" people? Do other ethnicities consider them as the same? What ethnicity does Mr Zuckerberg consider himself? His is of jewish herritage, as far as I know. This "white people" narrative is pretty destructive, but also is an overgeneralization, and just as destructive as overdifferentiation. I beleive both are a form of destructive, retrogade racism which has crept into Public language lately and is plaguing the thinking of people and destroying the progress of the last half cetury. I don't blame you for using it, and I don't beleive you wanted to say anything nasty, nor do I want to do so, just formulated some questions the topic raises in me.

ryandrake 10y ago

Simple divide-and-conquer. The 1% retain/grow their power by convincing 49.5% of us that the other 49.5% of us are the bad guys.

meanduck 10y ago
Your math is little wrong. 1%: The Politicians, Bureaucrats & Friends. 19%: The Rich paying with money. 80%: The Poor paying with freedom. Guess who takes shelter in tax havens like rich but at the same time pretend to be altruistic to/for poor.
- sulam 10y ago
  Erm, not to be all factual and shit, but politicians generally aren't in the 1% until after they're out of office. There are exceptions of course (the Clintons, because of the sheer length of service and variety of positions they've each held) but being a politician doesn't actually pay that well. There are perks, but you won't get into the 1% on perks. The 1% is primarily made up of people who have enough money that most of their income is passive, in the form of investment income, dividends, etc. Also it's worth pointing out that there's a couple ways of calculating whether or not you're in the 1% -- you can do it based on annual salary or net worth. The people who are _really_ in the 1% are there based on net worth, and it takes almost $9M in assets to get there. I'd break your list down into 4 categories: The 1% who can fund a politician's campaign, primarily through super PACs and other funding mechanisms that don't come with limits on the size of a donation. The people who may look and feel wealthy (they may have a fancy car, a job that pays well, but also a lot of expenses and haven't passed the point where their money has given them enough leverage to trade it for time -- instead they're still trading time for money). These people are the next 5% or so, with a minimum net worth of $2M. They are also likely to be the scapegoats for the true 1%. Next up are _some_ politicians (the ones with real influence -- your local mayor may or may not count, depending on the size of the city you live in. Your governor may or may not count, depending on the state you live in. Your House representative may or may not count, depending on how long they've been in office, which party currently controls the House and what committees they're on. There's your Senators -- hey! they probably count!) These are the 1%ers of politians -- the rest of them don't make a ton of money _and_ don't have a ton of influence. These guys are hoping to get cushy boardships, lobbying jobs, speakers fees, etc -- stuff that they're well-trained for by being a career politician. Then you have everyone else... Roughly 90% of Americans, just trying to keep their heads above water, hoping they have enough money to pay the mortgage, the rent, their kid's college education, the electric bill, or what-have-you. They are translating their time into money, but have almost no economic mobility -- meaning they have almost no chance to join 1%, and will only join the 5% at retirement at best.

nickff 10y ago

You are making many arguments on the 'philosophical anarchist' spectrum. Michael Huemer's "The Problem of Political Authority" may be of interest to you.

meanduck 10y ago

> Maybe it's because the king enables those above the peasants to retain that position? Surely its nothing compared to Govts with multi-trillion dollars in (extorted) revenue because thats what have been my observation.

olalonde 10y ago

I think it's more of a knee jerk reaction to the "wealthy people are evil" narrative that is quite common in the media. Some people just read the headline and immediately assume it's another instance of this, whether they are right or wrong. Personally, this kind of article doesn't "gratify my intellectual curiosity" and I don't think it belongs on HN.

andrei_says_ 10y ago
Of course, wealthy people are not evil. But maybe it just happens that in order to become wealthy, people more often than not have to repeatedly choose wealth over generosity, exploit other people, take advantage of resources that less privileged ones pay for without explicit consent. Also, it often happens that people who are already wealthy and possess more than what they and their children would need for comfortable royalty-level lives, continue accumulating wealth, focusing their disproportionally large power in more exploitation, more privilege, more wealth. I'm not sure where the line between not quite evil and ok, clearly evil lies but sometimes I wonder if accumulating a lot of wealth while creating more and more suffering for many other humans is a healthy behavior.
- Hondor 10y ago
  The idea that rich people got rich because they screwed other people over is quite common but also a made up generalization. It's an excuse that people who worry about their own socioeconomic status make to feel better about themselves. "I'm poor but at least I'm not evil like those rich people.". Instead of searching for reasons why rich people are evil, why not just be happy with your own life? You don't need to be rich. Stop worrying about status and get on with whatever you enjoy.
  - ue_ 10y ago
    >The idea that rich people got rich because they screwed other people over is quite common but also a made up generalization. Many people are wealthy because they have exploited the labour of others, exactly as any other commodity might be exploited. I would say this is the biggest screw-over: this great capitalist machine.

snowpanda 10y ago

>I notice an interesting trend with a large chunk of the discussion being centered towards why [rich person's] [behavior] is not [as bad] as you think. As opposed to inherently thinking anything rich people do must be evil? And that all your problems are caused by the "1%" ? Maybe most people just take responsibility for their own lives and their finances.

andrei_says_ 10y ago
It's a great idea in a level playing field. But if half of the people are born on someone else's land, have to work multiple jobs to cover basic expenses, have no chance of getting good education without becoming debt slaves and get thrown under the bus if they ever get sick, then maybe, just maybe, the expression "personal responsibility" has completely different meaning for them from the meaning that the people born as land owners, and can enjoy free* (or very affordable) education and healthcare as well doors opening for them throughout their whole lives because of their name or relations. (For a household making $2m or more per year, a $60k/year education is close to free.)
HeavenBanned 10y ago
Or in other words: "Let them eat cake." Your proposed solution is not feasible with the massively widening gap between the rich and poor in this nation.

amasad 10y ago

Yes, in socialist terms it's us "the intelligentsia" -- the educated people "engaged in the complex mental labours that critique, guide, and lead in shaping the culture and politics of their society". Take Noam Chomsky's comment for example: "The system operates through a complex of inducements, privileges, class interests, etc., relying on the tendency of much of the intelligentsia to conform to power (while proclaiming their courageous independence of mind), and the unwillingness to endure vilification, lies, and denial of the opportunity to work and publish, as punishment for telling the truth."

matt4077 10y ago

I'm not too fond of psychologising. But if anything, I believe a fondness for "contrarianism" is more likely to be at work.