5 ms·

Since graduating college I've stayed continuously employeed at several different Bay Area tech startups, so I'm pretty sure I have at least decent technology sk

Since graduating college I've stayed continuously employeed at several different Bay Area tech startups, so I'm pretty sure I have at least decent technology skills. Yet I've been to several interviews where questions about race/ethnicity were brought up (and I failed to get offers from those companies that ask such questions). I can only imagine what it's like being a woman going for these positions. My point, a lot of the filters these companies put up are totally artificial. I even had a chance to ask a well known SV entrepreneur/investor about what VCs look for, and he said one of the things is "people who look like him." I appreciated his honesty, but it certainly seems like there is a lot of talent that is ignored because people and companies are using poor hueristics.

zxcvb 10y ago
What questions? I'm sure this is illegal.
meanduck 10y ago
I am sure this has been mentioned to death. But I always find this contradictory. Companies cannot be soley profit driven if at same time they artifically reducing supply of eligable candidates. That makes no business sense. So if companies are rejecting someone that means as whole (read net), they are expecting more bang for the buck.
- sopooneo 10y ago
  Companies sell their employees to their investors. Pedigree and similarity sells.
- ch4s3 10y ago
  Companies aren't magic market machines, they're run by fallible people who make lazy "gut" decisions all the time.
  - meanduck 10y ago
    And Oracle would be near bottom in such list. Oracle hire Indians because its cheaper not because of some altruism. At least until Indian Govt makes it artifically expensive.
    - sokoloff 10y ago
      I don't see any practical way for the Indian government to do that that doesn't hurt their citizens and country.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- rifung 10y ago
  It's not as though the company is purposely discriminating though. People naturally discriminate and it takes conscious effort to stop yourself from doing so. At least that's what I was told at the talk about diversity and inclusion during my orientation at one of those big tech companies. Apparently it's because we benefited from being able to make quick judgments before civilized society was a thing.
- marklgr 10y ago
  > Companies cannot be soley profit driven if at same time they artifically reducing supply of eligable candidates. If there is a strong shortage of supply, you can be sure a lot of people will get over their prejudice -- but in labor markets, there often tend to be more offer than demand, so companies can choose whoever they want, without hurting the business whatsoever.
- ryandamm 10y ago
  Illiquid markets, stable equilibria (that are not at global minima), and irrational decision making. Unless your model accounts for such things, it's too simplified. Particularly when it comes to human factors. And if your model is that deficient, it's not really providing useful insights. Modeling complex phenomena well is tough. But you need to have enough humility to understand when your toy model might be deceiving you. If the shoe fits....
  - meanduck 10y ago
    No one will give the amount of invasive data needed to verify a model. So we will never know which model works.
deathanatos 10y ago
As someone whose both given and taken several interviews, this is highly abnormal. (Though, I'm essentially WASP, so perhaps I don't receive them.) There is (IMO) no legitimate reason to ask questions of race or ethnicity in a interview for a software engineer or similar (as it's simply irrelevant) … especially in today's world where we're trying to fix any discrimination in the field.
- dijit 10y ago
  I have asked "are you eligible to work in <Country>" if their current location is outside of the country or it is known they are not citizens. Which I guess would be a question about race? in a way? I wouldn't ask a white person who spoke swedish and had a very swedish name as I'd assume they are swedish by birth.
  - uiri 10y ago
    Race, color, national origin and citizenship are all protected classes which are illegal to discriminate against in the US. Race is orthogonal to nationality and citizenship. Especially in countries of immigrants like the US and Canada.
    - dijit 10y ago
      OK, but if you're interviewing over skype with me and your name is Abdullah Izrahim and your address is Dubai... it's not unreasonable for me to ask if you're able to work in the EU...
stbtrax 10y ago
How do questions of race and ethnicity come up in an interview? It's illegal to ask that and they can be sued so usually they're very careful to not touch the subject.
- sangnoir 10y ago
  It's not illegal to ask about race; it's illegal to discriminate by race. Companies usually avoid asking such questions because they can be used as evidence of race-based discrimination should the candidate decide to sue. The same applies to other fedaral protected classed (sexual orientation, religion, etc)
- nommm-nommm 10y ago
  It's not illegal to ask about race, but, asking about race is a good indication you are discriminating based on race, which is illegal. As to why they do it? I'm guessing that they either don't know not to bring up race or they don't care about discriminating based on race because they probably won't have any consequences. I've seen plenty of casual workplace sexism and racism in my life. It happens.
- TuringNYC 10y ago
  There is an easy way to discriminate on race without asking about race (aside from the obvious) -- pay. Lower the pay enough and only certain races (those at a competitive disadvantage in the job market) will apply. At my previous employer, there were some positions with salaries so low that the only people who applied were foreigners who were so desperate that they were willing to take it. White Americans (and American-born Indian Americans for that matter) with computer science degrees simply had more options than to take such a terrible role at such a terrible salary. It had nothing to do with the company discriminating.
- jdavis703 10y ago
  One white guy told me his buddies used the word "nigger," and why was this such a big deal? Another person started off saying "I can't ask you anything illegal, so let me ask you this," took a long pause, which was then followed up by a programming puzzle about monkeys. None of these questions were flat out illegal to ask, but from other software engineering interviews I've been in they're certainly not standard questions.
dawnbreez 10y ago
Now, having done a few job applications myself: there is apparently a tax break or something for hiring a person of color, because race is always included in the job application, and always under the same header as questions for, say, disabled or veteran status. However, asking in the interviews is unheard of, at least in shudder retail. And while outright denyig someone for their race isn't as common as you might think, people do instinctively like people who look like them, and they also have this bad habit of not questioning it when they like something...
- jdavis703 10y ago
  There is no tax break in the US for hiring certain groups of people (at least in regards to race and ethnicity). This data is requested for reporting purposes only. This is how companies can release "diversity reports" or answer questions when EEOC investigators start asking questions.
  - dawnbreez 10y ago
    Ah, thank you. I seem to be lucky in that I haven't directly seen any racist hiring policies. But, then again, I've only worked hourly retail jobs; for all I know, the higher you go, the less likely a hispanic man is to be hired. And it doesn't help that there's so many variables to control for--as other comments stated, it's filters all the way down. As an example ffrom the entertainment industry, I have never owned a computer powerful enough to handle both running a recently released game and recording footage of the gameplay, which means that my dreams of becoming a Youtube Star are rather limited. And don't even get me started on capture cards. The rich kid down the block can afford it because his parents buy it for him; my parents don't, and the reason for that could extend as far back as the lessons my grandmother learned when she had to work her way to the top of the Georgia Pacific packaging plant where she made her living.
- pc86 10y ago
  > there is apparently a tax break or something for hiring a person of color False (as stated in a sibling comment) > because race is always included in the job application I have not once ever been asked my race. Perhaps because they'll be able to tell at the interview? But it's not "always included" > and always under the same header as questions for, say, disabled or veteran status. I've only ever been asked about disabled or veteran status after employment.

zxcvb 10y ago

What questions? I'm sure this is illegal.

meanduck 10y ago

I am sure this has been mentioned to death. But I always find this contradictory. Companies cannot be soley profit driven if at same time they artifically reducing supply of eligable candidates. That makes no business sense. So if companies are rejecting someone that means as whole (read net), they are expecting more bang for the buck.

sopooneo 10y ago
Companies sell their employees to their investors. Pedigree and similarity sells.
ch4s3 10y ago
Companies aren't magic market machines, they're run by fallible people who make lazy "gut" decisions all the time.
- meanduck 10y ago
  And Oracle would be near bottom in such list. Oracle hire Indians because its cheaper not because of some altruism. At least until Indian Govt makes it artifically expensive.
  - sokoloff 10y ago
    I don't see any practical way for the Indian government to do that that doesn't hurt their citizens and country.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
rifung 10y ago
It's not as though the company is purposely discriminating though. People naturally discriminate and it takes conscious effort to stop yourself from doing so. At least that's what I was told at the talk about diversity and inclusion during my orientation at one of those big tech companies. Apparently it's because we benefited from being able to make quick judgments before civilized society was a thing.
marklgr 10y ago
> Companies cannot be soley profit driven if at same time they artifically reducing supply of eligable candidates. If there is a strong shortage of supply, you can be sure a lot of people will get over their prejudice -- but in labor markets, there often tend to be more offer than demand, so companies can choose whoever they want, without hurting the business whatsoever.
ryandamm 10y ago
Illiquid markets, stable equilibria (that are not at global minima), and irrational decision making. Unless your model accounts for such things, it's too simplified. Particularly when it comes to human factors. And if your model is that deficient, it's not really providing useful insights. Modeling complex phenomena well is tough. But you need to have enough humility to understand when your toy model might be deceiving you. If the shoe fits....
- meanduck 10y ago
  No one will give the amount of invasive data needed to verify a model. So we will never know which model works.

deathanatos 10y ago

As someone whose both given and taken several interviews, this is highly abnormal. (Though, I'm essentially WASP, so perhaps I don't receive them.) There is (IMO) no legitimate reason to ask questions of race or ethnicity in a interview for a software engineer or similar (as it's simply irrelevant) … especially in today's world where we're trying to fix any discrimination in the field.

dijit 10y ago
I have asked "are you eligible to work in <Country>" if their current location is outside of the country or it is known they are not citizens. Which I guess would be a question about race? in a way? I wouldn't ask a white person who spoke swedish and had a very swedish name as I'd assume they are swedish by birth.
- uiri 10y ago
  Race, color, national origin and citizenship are all protected classes which are illegal to discriminate against in the US. Race is orthogonal to nationality and citizenship. Especially in countries of immigrants like the US and Canada.
  - dijit 10y ago
    OK, but if you're interviewing over skype with me and your name is Abdullah Izrahim and your address is Dubai... it's not unreasonable for me to ask if you're able to work in the EU...

stbtrax 10y ago

How do questions of race and ethnicity come up in an interview? It's illegal to ask that and they can be sued so usually they're very careful to not touch the subject.

sangnoir 10y ago
It's not illegal to ask about race; it's illegal to discriminate by race. Companies usually avoid asking such questions because they can be used as evidence of race-based discrimination should the candidate decide to sue. The same applies to other fedaral protected classed (sexual orientation, religion, etc)
nommm-nommm 10y ago
It's not illegal to ask about race, but, asking about race is a good indication you are discriminating based on race, which is illegal. As to why they do it? I'm guessing that they either don't know not to bring up race or they don't care about discriminating based on race because they probably won't have any consequences. I've seen plenty of casual workplace sexism and racism in my life. It happens.
TuringNYC 10y ago
There is an easy way to discriminate on race without asking about race (aside from the obvious) -- pay. Lower the pay enough and only certain races (those at a competitive disadvantage in the job market) will apply. At my previous employer, there were some positions with salaries so low that the only people who applied were foreigners who were so desperate that they were willing to take it. White Americans (and American-born Indian Americans for that matter) with computer science degrees simply had more options than to take such a terrible role at such a terrible salary. It had nothing to do with the company discriminating.
jdavis703 10y ago
One white guy told me his buddies used the word "nigger," and why was this such a big deal? Another person started off saying "I can't ask you anything illegal, so let me ask you this," took a long pause, which was then followed up by a programming puzzle about monkeys. None of these questions were flat out illegal to ask, but from other software engineering interviews I've been in they're certainly not standard questions.

dawnbreez 10y ago

Now, having done a few job applications myself: there is apparently a tax break or something for hiring a person of color, because race is always included in the job application, and always under the same header as questions for, say, disabled or veteran status. However, asking in the interviews is unheard of, at least in shudder retail. And while outright denyig someone for their race isn't as common as you might think, people do instinctively like people who look like them, and they also have this bad habit of not questioning it when they like something...

jdavis703 10y ago
There is no tax break in the US for hiring certain groups of people (at least in regards to race and ethnicity). This data is requested for reporting purposes only. This is how companies can release "diversity reports" or answer questions when EEOC investigators start asking questions.
- dawnbreez 10y ago
  Ah, thank you. I seem to be lucky in that I haven't directly seen any racist hiring policies. But, then again, I've only worked hourly retail jobs; for all I know, the higher you go, the less likely a hispanic man is to be hired. And it doesn't help that there's so many variables to control for--as other comments stated, it's filters all the way down. As an example ffrom the entertainment industry, I have never owned a computer powerful enough to handle both running a recently released game and recording footage of the gameplay, which means that my dreams of becoming a Youtube Star are rather limited. And don't even get me started on capture cards. The rich kid down the block can afford it because his parents buy it for him; my parents don't, and the reason for that could extend as far back as the lessons my grandmother learned when she had to work her way to the top of the Georgia Pacific packaging plant where she made her living.
pc86 10y ago
> there is apparently a tax break or something for hiring a person of color False (as stated in a sibling comment) > because race is always included in the job application I have not once ever been asked my race. Perhaps because they'll be able to tell at the interview? But it's not "always included" > and always under the same header as questions for, say, disabled or veteran status. I've only ever been asked about disabled or veteran status after employment.