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1) Equality of opportunity will never lead to equality of outcome. Our current politics around equality are fraudulent. Different people have different attribut

1) Equality of opportunity will never lead to equality of outcome. Our current politics around equality are fraudulent. Different people have different attributes. It doesn't mean one group is better. It just means people are different. For example, the NBA will never be dominated by players of Asian descent. Another: you will never see women asking for equal opportunity for jobs like working in the north sea on offshore oil rigs. 2) We can use words until the end of time to weigh the merits of state-forced equality. Same could be said about anything else that is non-scientific in nature: i.e. we could also argue about the relative merits of state-forced equality in communism vs capitalism in the same way. You can never prove anything this way in non-scientific fields, and at best all that can be done is hope to convince the other person that your reasoning is superior. However, before we got to that point, I'd even reject it on moral principle: it is immoral for government to enforce racist or sexist policies that discriminate against certain groups of people. Yes, it's in the name of moral outrage (equality), but note government-sanctioned use of force always comes with an argument of moral outrage, even if it is almost undeniably immoral, i.e: (America funding Jihadists in the Syrian War, Vietnam, Nazi Germany, the Opening of Japan, the Inquisition, etc., etc.). Further on #2, one of the insights of modern economic theory has been that it can many times be actually better to make adjustments to free market outcomes ex post rather than use heavy handed regulation to force an arbitrary result ex ante. If I were king, I'd much rather see everyone with free access to healthcare, housing, transportation, and education than focus on how many women are working in male-dominated roles like offshore oil drilling in the north sea (or coding, whatever arbitrary field it happens to be).

logandavis 10y ago
1) You've carefully chosen two examples of jobs that depend highly on physical attributes with well-understood genetic causes (height, muscular development), and you've extrapolated this out to technical employees at Oracle, whose skills are hardly defined by such well-understood genetic markers. This is faulty logic. 2) Just so we're clear, you literally just compared affirmative action to Nazi Germany and the Spanish Inquisition. I would call this "false equivalence", but I suppose it's useless to try to "use words until the end of time" (unless, apparently, those words are "moral principle").
- wallace_f 10y ago
  >you literally just compared affirmative action to Nazi Germany and the Spanish Inquisition. No, I didn't. That's your misunderstanding. Go back and read what I wrote. No one is saying they're equivalent. What I did say is that government sanctioned force always comes with an argument of moral outrage, even if what they are doing is undeniably immoral. I should expect more of these straw man, incorrect, borderline-troll-bait attacks. It's easy to just agree with what's politically correct. It's hard to fight for what's right and this is what you run into when you do.
  - logandavis 10y ago
    Ah. My apologies for misreading. I went back and re-read what you wrote. Please correct me if the following interpretation is wrong: First, you said that moral outrage is the motivation for "racist" policies such as Affirmative Action. Next, you said that moral outrage also motivates state-sponsored violence. (I suppose this does not constitute a comparison per se.) I'm sorry, but I really don't see the point of bringing up the Nazis, if not to tar "state-forced equality" programs with the same brush of "moral outrage leading to moral impropriety". Can you help clear up my misunderstanding?
    - wallace_f 10y ago
      That's also not my intended meaning. I don't know how else to say it and feel that I'm being baited. I guess I'll quote myself: >I'd even reject it on moral principle: it is immoral for government to enforce racist or sexist policies that discriminate against certain groups of people. Yes, it's in the name of moral outrage (equality), but note government-sanctioned use of force always comes with an argument of moral outrage, even if it is almost undeniably immoral, i.e: (America funding Jihadists in the Syrian War, Vietnam, Nazi Germany, the Opening of Japan, the Inquisition, etc., etc.). This is not about doing what's right. This is about lawyers and political correctness. There are plenty of opportunities to make the world a better place and I don't see that many Glenn Greenwalds, Laura Poitras's, or Snowdens. In fact, the government has worked to undermine at least 2/3 of those people. We can't even provide everyone with healthcare or clean drinking water. We're funding jihadists in Syria. We have cities with murder rates higher than any country in Africa. The CIA has been caught distributing crack cocaine and the reporter who revealed it "died of suicide by 2 gunshot wounds to the head." The political correctness around equality all sounds and feels great, but the reality is that it's textbook Harrison Bergeron stuff leading us closer to that kind of dystopian future. It's hard to see that, harder yet to have the guts to say it, and much easier to just be politically correct and ignore reality.
nommm-nommm 10y ago
I like how you are so sure that not even a single woman could possibly ever want to work on an oil rig that you bring it up in two comments without first attempting to Google it. Hint, they do want to work on oil rigs, they do work on oil rigs, and they have used legal action against those who wouldn't let them work on oil rigs because of their gender. That made up example is especially bizarre because I can't think of a reason why women, as a group, wouldn't want to work on an oil rig, other than concern about possible sexual harassment. Women want, and have fought (and won) to have equal opportunity in even combat positions. https://foreignpolicy.com/2014/04/24/do-military-women-want-combat-jobs-the-survey-numbers-say-yes-and-so-do-more-than-9000-combat-action-badges https://foreignpolicy.com/2014/04/24/do-military-women-want-... Your worldview does not match the facts.
- wallace_f 10y ago
  You are insane to believe just as many women as men would want to work on oil rigs. There are many other examples: auto mechanics, miners, movers, truckers, construction workers, jobs on fishing vessels. I didn't "cherry pick" one example. Any gritty, dangerous, physically demanding job that assaults your senses is going to attract more men than women. Just citing a single lawsuit as your evidence that the opposite is true, and extrapolating that to say "the facts don't match your worldview" is an assault on logic and reason.
  - ryandamm 10y ago
    > You are insane Let's not do this here, please. Also, you're discrediting yourself and your arguments before I even get to the substance of your comment.
    - wallace_f 10y ago
      It was not intended as an ad hominen. It's intended to be reflective of the facts available in the world.
SolaceQuantum 10y ago
As mentioned earlier, women do in fact protest against discrimination in the oil rig industry[1]. 1.http://www.warrensiurek.com/blog/2015/04/5-women-claim-gender-discrimination-after-they-were-denied-jobs.shtml http://www.warrensiurek.com/blog/2015/04/5-women-claim-gende...
- nommm-nommm 10y ago
  Another example http://www.upi.com/Archives/1981/07/12/A-Labrador-woman-has-filed-complaints-sexual-discrimination-against/7758363758400/ http://www.upi.com/Archives/1981/07/12/A-Labrador-woman-has-...
  - wallace_f 10y ago
    Do you both really believe as many women as men want to work in the oil rig industry, or that it is even close? There will always be exceptions, especially when huge sums of money motivate the exceptions. What about as auto mechanics, or plumbers? Those businesses can be very entrepreneurial, requiring no hiring decision, yet women are still underrepresented. Would you still say there are not more men than women prefer those jobs?

logandavis 10y ago

1) You've carefully chosen two examples of jobs that depend highly on physical attributes with well-understood genetic causes (height, muscular development), and you've extrapolated this out to technical employees at Oracle, whose skills are hardly defined by such well-understood genetic markers. This is faulty logic. 2) Just so we're clear, you literally just compared affirmative action to Nazi Germany and the Spanish Inquisition. I would call this "false equivalence", but I suppose it's useless to try to "use words until the end of time" (unless, apparently, those words are "moral principle").

wallace_f 10y ago
>you literally just compared affirmative action to Nazi Germany and the Spanish Inquisition. No, I didn't. That's your misunderstanding. Go back and read what I wrote. No one is saying they're equivalent. What I did say is that government sanctioned force always comes with an argument of moral outrage, even if what they are doing is undeniably immoral. I should expect more of these straw man, incorrect, borderline-troll-bait attacks. It's easy to just agree with what's politically correct. It's hard to fight for what's right and this is what you run into when you do.
- logandavis 10y ago
  Ah. My apologies for misreading. I went back and re-read what you wrote. Please correct me if the following interpretation is wrong: First, you said that moral outrage is the motivation for "racist" policies such as Affirmative Action. Next, you said that moral outrage also motivates state-sponsored violence. (I suppose this does not constitute a comparison per se.) I'm sorry, but I really don't see the point of bringing up the Nazis, if not to tar "state-forced equality" programs with the same brush of "moral outrage leading to moral impropriety". Can you help clear up my misunderstanding?
  - wallace_f 10y ago
    That's also not my intended meaning. I don't know how else to say it and feel that I'm being baited. I guess I'll quote myself: >I'd even reject it on moral principle: it is immoral for government to enforce racist or sexist policies that discriminate against certain groups of people. Yes, it's in the name of moral outrage (equality), but note government-sanctioned use of force always comes with an argument of moral outrage, even if it is almost undeniably immoral, i.e: (America funding Jihadists in the Syrian War, Vietnam, Nazi Germany, the Opening of Japan, the Inquisition, etc., etc.). This is not about doing what's right. This is about lawyers and political correctness. There are plenty of opportunities to make the world a better place and I don't see that many Glenn Greenwalds, Laura Poitras's, or Snowdens. In fact, the government has worked to undermine at least 2/3 of those people. We can't even provide everyone with healthcare or clean drinking water. We're funding jihadists in Syria. We have cities with murder rates higher than any country in Africa. The CIA has been caught distributing crack cocaine and the reporter who revealed it "died of suicide by 2 gunshot wounds to the head." The political correctness around equality all sounds and feels great, but the reality is that it's textbook Harrison Bergeron stuff leading us closer to that kind of dystopian future. It's hard to see that, harder yet to have the guts to say it, and much easier to just be politically correct and ignore reality.

nommm-nommm 10y ago

I like how you are so sure that not even a single woman could possibly ever want to work on an oil rig that you bring it up in two comments without first attempting to Google it. Hint, they do want to work on oil rigs, they do work on oil rigs, and they have used legal action against those who wouldn't let them work on oil rigs because of their gender. That made up example is especially bizarre because I can't think of a reason why women, as a group, wouldn't want to work on an oil rig, other than concern about possible sexual harassment. Women want, and have fought (and won) to have equal opportunity in even combat positions. https://foreignpolicy.com/2014/04/24/do-military-women-want-combat-jobs-the-survey-numbers-say-yes-and-so-do-more-than-9000-combat-action-badges https://foreignpolicy.com/2014/04/24/do-military-women-want-... Your worldview does not match the facts.

wallace_f 10y ago
You are insane to believe just as many women as men would want to work on oil rigs. There are many other examples: auto mechanics, miners, movers, truckers, construction workers, jobs on fishing vessels. I didn't "cherry pick" one example. Any gritty, dangerous, physically demanding job that assaults your senses is going to attract more men than women. Just citing a single lawsuit as your evidence that the opposite is true, and extrapolating that to say "the facts don't match your worldview" is an assault on logic and reason.
- ryandamm 10y ago
  > You are insane Let's not do this here, please. Also, you're discrediting yourself and your arguments before I even get to the substance of your comment.
  - wallace_f 10y ago
    It was not intended as an ad hominen. It's intended to be reflective of the facts available in the world.

SolaceQuantum 10y ago

As mentioned earlier, women do in fact protest against discrimination in the oil rig industry[1]. 1.http://www.warrensiurek.com/blog/2015/04/5-women-claim-gender-discrimination-after-they-were-denied-jobs.shtml http://www.warrensiurek.com/blog/2015/04/5-women-claim-gende...

nommm-nommm 10y ago
Another example http://www.upi.com/Archives/1981/07/12/A-Labrador-woman-has-filed-complaints-sexual-discrimination-against/7758363758400/ http://www.upi.com/Archives/1981/07/12/A-Labrador-woman-has-...
- wallace_f 10y ago
  Do you both really believe as many women as men want to work in the oil rig industry, or that it is even close? There will always be exceptions, especially when huge sums of money motivate the exceptions. What about as auto mechanics, or plumbers? Those businesses can be very entrepreneurial, requiring no hiring decision, yet women are still underrepresented. Would you still say there are not more men than women prefer those jobs?