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Aside from the fact that this is 100% speculation on 0 data and sounds to me to be both wrong[1] and more than a little bit biased, why would this complaint eve

by mundo 10y ago

Aside from the fact that this is 100% speculation on 0 data and sounds to me to be both wrong[1] and more than a little bit biased, why would this complaint even matter if it were true? "It won't work as well in a shitty poor neighborhood as it will in a nice one" is very likely going to be true of every attempt to reduce every social ill. It doesn't follow that they wouldn't work at all or would not be worth the cost or should not be tried. 1. I can't find drinking-by-income data, but anecdotally, I think the idea that underaged drinking and smoking is only a problem in poor neighborhoods would make most Americans laugh out loud.

edblarney 10y ago
"[1] I can't find drinking-by-income data, but anecdotally" Wow, your "non-reference reference" is a brilliant way to criticize that my comment was not based on factual reference! I didn't say that 'drinking and smoking' is only a problem in 'poor neighbourhoods'. So your comment is not relevant. In fact, I didn't even refer to 'poor neighbourhoods', I indicated 'Aboriginal communities' in particular - where the problems are systematic and acute. What is 'laughable' is that anyone would consider that the total social break-down in Aboriginal communities - and the issues that some kids in wealthy areas are remotely related, or should be treated the same way. In Scandinavian countries, as I mentioned, there is no 'taboo' about drinking. It's 'not positive' but nevertheless 'socially acceptable' to be a kid, drinking every so often. A 'drunk 14 year old' is nothing to make a huge fuss about. Of course, 'a community of drunk 14 year olds' is. In America - there would indeed be much fuss over a single incidence of fairly underage drinking. It's not socially accepted. There are basically zero middle or upper class areas in America wherein 42% of 14-16 year year olds have been 'drunk in the last month' and also none where 25% of 14-16 year olds are smoking. In America overall, the data (which was trivial to find) has it at about 5% [1] (using average of 8th grade and 10th grade). As it would stand America already has lower teen drunkenness than Iceland even after Icelands 'amazing social program'. Iceland before: 41%, after: 7%. America now: 5%. Whoops! Also - smoking is definitely a much greater issue among lower economic classes, this is consistent in most advanced countries. Drinking - it's a mixed bag. College kids drink the most of any group. [1] https://responsibility.org/get-the-facts/research/statistics/underage-drinking-statistics/ https://responsibility.org/get-the-facts/research/statistics...
- mundo 10y ago
  > As it would stand America already has lower teen drunkenness than Iceland even after Icelands 'amazing social program'. Whoops! That would be a real zinger if I had said it wasn't. Look, I'm not sure what you're on about, but it doesn't seem to be related to my comment. Could you go find someone who disagrees with whatever-it-is you think about Aboriginal communities and argue with them?
dinkumthinkum 10y ago
I see this common theme in thread, a sort of asinine pedantic appeal to "data." It's not as if those that recognize clearly that "solutions" for Iceland and it's, as others have correctly, very small and largely homogenous population will not bear the same results in the US do not somehow believe in science or "data." It may seem like hand waving to those constantly repeating the "data" refrain but it is also very naive ignore the rather obvious qualitative analysis. World societies are not like ant colonies. There is not enough time in the world to gather complete and precise sociological datasets and even if there were, it would, honestly, be a waste of time for those some, and this will unpopular, common sense about the problem. It's sort of ironic that those crying most about the data are just shrugging off the several orders of magnitude quantitative difference between Iceland and the US across a panoply of population datapoints. You cannot just try every single possible experiment for "completeness"; it is impractical and especially when it flies in the face of common sense (or substitute "good qualitative analysis" if you like). Also, on some level it is a bit silly, do people think there have not been after school programs in the US already? It is hardly a panacea; I mean it is not even in the ballpark.
- Kluny 10y ago
  > a sort of asinine pedantic appeal to "data." Aka facts and evidence, as opposed to wild speculation based on gut feelings?
  - dinkumthinkum 10y ago
    You're just committing the same flawed reasoning I'm talking about. Human behavior is complicated, your view is, and I don't mind stating this absolutely, is very naive, if well intentioned.

by mundo 10y ago

edblarney 10y ago

"[1] I can't find drinking-by-income data, but anecdotally" Wow, your "non-reference reference" is a brilliant way to criticize that my comment was not based on factual reference! I didn't say that 'drinking and smoking' is only a problem in 'poor neighbourhoods'. So your comment is not relevant. In fact, I didn't even refer to 'poor neighbourhoods', I indicated 'Aboriginal communities' in particular - where the problems are systematic and acute. What is 'laughable' is that anyone would consider that the total social break-down in Aboriginal communities - and the issues that some kids in wealthy areas are remotely related, or should be treated the same way. In Scandinavian countries, as I mentioned, there is no 'taboo' about drinking. It's 'not positive' but nevertheless 'socially acceptable' to be a kid, drinking every so often. A 'drunk 14 year old' is nothing to make a huge fuss about. Of course, 'a community of drunk 14 year olds' is. In America - there would indeed be much fuss over a single incidence of fairly underage drinking. It's not socially accepted. There are basically zero middle or upper class areas in America wherein 42% of 14-16 year year olds have been 'drunk in the last month' and also none where 25% of 14-16 year olds are smoking. In America overall, the data (which was trivial to find) has it at about 5% [1] (using average of 8th grade and 10th grade). As it would stand America already has lower teen drunkenness than Iceland even after Icelands 'amazing social program'. Iceland before: 41%, after: 7%. America now: 5%. Whoops! Also - smoking is definitely a much greater issue among lower economic classes, this is consistent in most advanced countries. Drinking - it's a mixed bag. College kids drink the most of any group. [1] https://responsibility.org/get-the-facts/research/statistics/underage-drinking-statistics/ https://responsibility.org/get-the-facts/research/statistics...

mundo 10y ago
> As it would stand America already has lower teen drunkenness than Iceland even after Icelands 'amazing social program'. Whoops! That would be a real zinger if I had said it wasn't. Look, I'm not sure what you're on about, but it doesn't seem to be related to my comment. Could you go find someone who disagrees with whatever-it-is you think about Aboriginal communities and argue with them?

dinkumthinkum 10y ago

I see this common theme in thread, a sort of asinine pedantic appeal to "data." It's not as if those that recognize clearly that "solutions" for Iceland and it's, as others have correctly, very small and largely homogenous population will not bear the same results in the US do not somehow believe in science or "data." It may seem like hand waving to those constantly repeating the "data" refrain but it is also very naive ignore the rather obvious qualitative analysis. World societies are not like ant colonies. There is not enough time in the world to gather complete and precise sociological datasets and even if there were, it would, honestly, be a waste of time for those some, and this will unpopular, common sense about the problem. It's sort of ironic that those crying most about the data are just shrugging off the several orders of magnitude quantitative difference between Iceland and the US across a panoply of population datapoints. You cannot just try every single possible experiment for "completeness"; it is impractical and especially when it flies in the face of common sense (or substitute "good qualitative analysis" if you like). Also, on some level it is a bit silly, do people think there have not been after school programs in the US already? It is hardly a panacea; I mean it is not even in the ballpark.

Kluny 10y ago
> a sort of asinine pedantic appeal to "data." Aka facts and evidence, as opposed to wild speculation based on gut feelings?
- dinkumthinkum 10y ago
  You're just committing the same flawed reasoning I'm talking about. Human behavior is complicated, your view is, and I don't mind stating this absolutely, is very naive, if well intentioned.