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Leaking to "trusted news sources" is still leaking! Further, my central claim, that Snowden leaked the details of legitimate foreign intelligence activities, i

by notpc 10y ago

Leaking to "trusted news sources" is still leaking! Further, my central claim, that Snowden leaked the details of legitimate foreign intelligence activities, is hard fact. Look at my response to 'abandonliberty'. As for him just being stuck in Russia, he claims to have been en route to Ecuador by way of Cuba by way of Russia. All of these, mind you, part of the same anti-American bloc (which Venezuela is also a member of).

dpark 10y ago
What do you imagine the alternate escape routes were? Do you think he could hide out in Wales? If you want to escape the clutches of the US, you must go somewhere that won't simply extradite you back to the US. Being in Russia, "stuck" or not isn't relevant to whether Snowden is a traitor. I also don't see how Ecuador is part of an "anti-American bloc" given that they are a democratic state and literally use the US dollar as their official currency.
- notpc 10y ago
  >I also don't see how Ecuador is part of an "anti-American bloc" given that they are a democratic state and literally use the US dollar as their official currency. You should familiarize yourself more then, with Rafael Correa, Hugo Chavez, and their foreign policy and overseas allies.
  - dpark 10y ago
    I should have left that out. The real point was to address the claim that he "fled to our adversaries". There are realistically no neutral parties that he could have fled to. I'll just concede on the Ecuadorian anti-Americanism. I don't think they're the worst but they are certainly not a dear friend.
    - notpc 10y ago
      The whole thing seems very cowardly. If Snowden truly thought he was acting in the best interests of his country, he could have: 1. Leaked only information about the NSA spying on Americans within the US. 2. Stayed within the US and faced the music. Instead, he damaged America's ability to collect intelligence on foreign countries by revealing our capabilities, and then fled into the arms of our adversaries who have used him as a propaganda piece. Our country exists with the freedom, prosperity, and influence we enjoy today because millions of men were willing to march to their deaths for it. Meanwhile, Snowden can't even face a jury of his peers for an act of civil disobedience? He must not think much of his cause.
      - dpark 10y ago
        This is a tired trope. Even if it's true that belief in a cause requires a willingness to die, that doesn't mean that it requires one to actually die. I don't see how Snowden staying around for a life or death sentence would have done anything useful for his cause. It's not "cowardly" to want to avoid life in a federal prison or death by lethal injection. You're just spouting soundbytes. You restated the "fled into the arms of our adversaries" line nearly verbatim but ignore the fact that there's nowhere else to "flee" because any country not willing to extradite him to the US is de facto "anti-American". You say he damaged our ability to collect data but don't have any proof. Was it embarrassing to the nation? Sure. Is there proof that it actually harmed us? I'm not aware of any. You also call him a coward as if level of bravery is relevant to treason as opposed to a pure appeal to emotion over logic.
        notpc 10y ago
        >You say he damaged our ability to collect data but don't have any proof. The damage is very obvious. He revealed a bunch of mediums that the NSA had the capability to monitor. Any sophisticated actor that wants to avoid US intelligence is now avoiding those mediums. My point is that he didn't have to flee. Instead he fled into the arms of those who stand to gain the most from his knowledge of our intelligence capabilities. Putin is not giving him asylum for free. I'm sure he's getting something out of it, if just the ability to use Snowden as as a propaganda piece and negotiating chip. It'd probably be hard to make a treason charge legally stick, but I believe it is what he is morally guilty of. There are plenty of things that he is plainly guilty of that carry equivalently harsh sentences. You're right, he had nowhere else to flee but the enemies of the United States. But that doesn't change the fact that he fled, nor where he fled to. He did not have to flee. And yes, I think he's a coward for it.
        dpark 10y ago
        The damage is so obvious that you can't cite a concrete example? Do you think other nations were actually unaware that we hack into computer systems and tap phone lines? The idea that Snowden should have stayed in the US strikes me as petty and naive. If he's a coward for fleeing instead of spending life in prison then I suspect the vast, vast majority of the population are also cowards.

by notpc 10y ago

dpark 10y ago

What do you imagine the alternate escape routes were? Do you think he could hide out in Wales? If you want to escape the clutches of the US, you must go somewhere that won't simply extradite you back to the US. Being in Russia, "stuck" or not isn't relevant to whether Snowden is a traitor. I also don't see how Ecuador is part of an "anti-American bloc" given that they are a democratic state and literally use the US dollar as their official currency.

notpc 10y ago
>I also don't see how Ecuador is part of an "anti-American bloc" given that they are a democratic state and literally use the US dollar as their official currency. You should familiarize yourself more then, with Rafael Correa, Hugo Chavez, and their foreign policy and overseas allies.
- dpark 10y ago
  I should have left that out. The real point was to address the claim that he "fled to our adversaries". There are realistically no neutral parties that he could have fled to. I'll just concede on the Ecuadorian anti-Americanism. I don't think they're the worst but they are certainly not a dear friend.
  - notpc 10y ago
    The whole thing seems very cowardly. If Snowden truly thought he was acting in the best interests of his country, he could have: 1. Leaked only information about the NSA spying on Americans within the US. 2. Stayed within the US and faced the music. Instead, he damaged America's ability to collect intelligence on foreign countries by revealing our capabilities, and then fled into the arms of our adversaries who have used him as a propaganda piece. Our country exists with the freedom, prosperity, and influence we enjoy today because millions of men were willing to march to their deaths for it. Meanwhile, Snowden can't even face a jury of his peers for an act of civil disobedience? He must not think much of his cause.
    - dpark 10y ago
      This is a tired trope. Even if it's true that belief in a cause requires a willingness to die, that doesn't mean that it requires one to actually die. I don't see how Snowden staying around for a life or death sentence would have done anything useful for his cause. It's not "cowardly" to want to avoid life in a federal prison or death by lethal injection. You're just spouting soundbytes. You restated the "fled into the arms of our adversaries" line nearly verbatim but ignore the fact that there's nowhere else to "flee" because any country not willing to extradite him to the US is de facto "anti-American". You say he damaged our ability to collect data but don't have any proof. Was it embarrassing to the nation? Sure. Is there proof that it actually harmed us? I'm not aware of any. You also call him a coward as if level of bravery is relevant to treason as opposed to a pure appeal to emotion over logic.
      - notpc 10y ago
        >You say he damaged our ability to collect data but don't have any proof. The damage is very obvious. He revealed a bunch of mediums that the NSA had the capability to monitor. Any sophisticated actor that wants to avoid US intelligence is now avoiding those mediums. My point is that he didn't have to flee. Instead he fled into the arms of those who stand to gain the most from his knowledge of our intelligence capabilities. Putin is not giving him asylum for free. I'm sure he's getting something out of it, if just the ability to use Snowden as as a propaganda piece and negotiating chip. It'd probably be hard to make a treason charge legally stick, but I believe it is what he is morally guilty of. There are plenty of things that he is plainly guilty of that carry equivalently harsh sentences. You're right, he had nowhere else to flee but the enemies of the United States. But that doesn't change the fact that he fled, nor where he fled to. He did not have to flee. And yes, I think he's a coward for it.
        dpark 10y ago
        The damage is so obvious that you can't cite a concrete example? Do you think other nations were actually unaware that we hack into computer systems and tap phone lines? The idea that Snowden should have stayed in the US strikes me as petty and naive. If he's a coward for fleeing instead of spending life in prison then I suspect the vast, vast majority of the population are also cowards.