5 ms·

Diversity is not the issue, poverty is; serious, chronic poverty the type of which Iceland doesn't have.

mjolk 10y ago
Reducing non-legal-substance abuse is considerably easier in Iceland as well; comparative to the US, it's quite difficult to find drugs in Iceland -- they don't have an equivalent Mexico[0] (or other similarly unstable country) for which narcotics can trivially flow through as Iceland is an island. [0] https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/mx.html https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/... see transnational issues, illicit drugs
- aylmao 10y ago
  Where there's demand, there's supply. Mexico wouldn't be such a drug-trafficking powerhouse if it didn't have the world's biggest consumer market right above.
  - mjolk 10y ago
    Without getting into a discussion of addiction, the choices of those at risk of addiction, decision making in young adults, or any other aspect of this kerfuffle, even if Iceland had the demand, they wouldn't have the supply -- it's incredibly hard to get high on drugs that aren't physically there. Access is a major factor.
    - flukus 10y ago
      They might not have anything that needs to be imported en masse, but they would still have drugs that are trivial to produce locally, like weed and meth.
      - mjolk 10y ago
        Sure, weed or shake-and-bake meth is going to happen, but weed isn't very serious (compared to heroin or cocaine) and small-scale production of hard drugs will yield impure, weak product at a rate that won't support societal usage (and ramping up production requires infrastructure that _would_ get noticed on a small island).
        flukus 10y ago
        I think you'd be surprised at how much can be produced locally when you don't have competitors with an economy of scale.
    - aylmao 10y ago
      Bro, drug-dealing is a multi-billion enterprise. Drug dealers are using 747s, submarines, tunnels, speed-boats, etc to supply. Trust me, there IS drugs in Iceland. And I can asure you, if there were a spike in demand drug dealers wouldn't fold their arms. Locals would grow weed/cook meth in their backyard and find ways to smuggle foreign product too.
      - mjolk 10y ago
        > Bro, drug-dealing is a multi-billion enterprise. Drug dealers are using 747s, submarines, tunnels, speed-boats, etc to supply...Trust me, there IS drugs in Iceland. Grammatically, 'there "are" drugs in Iceland', but that's besides the point. Anecdotally, I've been around them in Iceland and they were treated as a rarity and not like they are here (northeast US), where I could find them within 30 minutes of asking. It's quite difficult to make a tunnel or a submarine that travels from Mexico from Iceland. There are few airports in Iceland and they take smuggling quite seriously as by-air is one of the very few ways to transport illicit goods. Finally, the social mores around production of methamphetamine are far different than hearing someone you know took a pill while partying. Ease of supply chain deeply matters. edit: Also, please don't call me "bro"
        aylmao 10y ago
        > Also, please don't call me "bro" Sorry, won't do. > Grammatically, 'there "are" drugs in Iceland', but that's besides the point. Welp, honest gramatical mistake from a non-native speaker. Even the best of us make mistakes sometimes, thanks for the correction. Having said that, please don't correct me any more, I personally felt it more pedantic than helpful, and I think you can read over small issues like that to keep conversation centered on what matters (: > Anecdotally, I've been around them in Iceland and they were treated as a rarity and not like they are here (northeast US), where I could find them within 30 minutes of asking. Anecdotally, I go to school in the northeast US, and I know the density of consumers there is pretty high; I assume higher than Iceland. Unsurprising there's dealers all over too. -- I see what debate we're falling into here; does supply create it's own demand? There's plenty of literature on the issue, and I will agree with you in that the easy of supply matters. Your original comment and subsequent replies make me believe you think drugs is a supply-centered issue, when in fact thats far from true, and I know this for two reasons: 1. The US has for years been on a "war on drugs", and now they brought Mexico into it. Yet this hasn't been effective at all as a means of stopping drug consumption. 2. Island tackled drug demand instead, and it had fantastic results. Is supply in Iceland constrained? For certain drugs perhaps. But this doesn't matter to the main point of the article. We can have a look at a point I made you didn't address; weed. Weed consumption is on the ground in Iceland, yet anyone could grow weed in their backyard to satisfy supply. Alcohol is legal in Iceland too, I suppose there is a lot of supply. 20 years ago, they were trying to cut supply and it didn't work. So now they did something different, and it worked. Look, if you think the reason the US is in such a bad drug situation all because of Mexico, I can't convince you you're wrong, you'll have to figure that one out on your own. What would convince you of this? What data is needed to convince people like you of the fact the problem is in the demand and so the US should focus on the well-being of its population instead of paying lots of money so Mexicans kill each other?
  - netsharc 10y ago
    Indeed. Just look at the painkiller abuse in USA to see that substance abuse is the problem, whether legal or not is irrelevant.
    - mjolk 10y ago
      There's a marked difference between a xanax-popping soccer-mom and level of access required to create endemic addiction in teenagers.
      - dromen 10y ago
        Like how moms aren't "levels of access"? I don't understand what you're trying to say.
        fragmede 10y ago
        In a uniquely American way, the teenager doesn't have access to a doctor, may not have access to a car, almost certainly doesn't have access to public transportation. How then, do they get drugs? Via slightly older drug-dealing friends from school, which is different enough from a mom who goes to the doctor, gets a prescription, and simply fills it from a pharmacy.
- mundo 10y ago
  How is this relevant to the results of the program described in the article? Iceland was still an island thirty years ago, yes? Also it's not clear how this is related to either parent comment. Seems like it was just tacked on here to be higher in the thread.
- NKCSS 10y ago
  Netherlands is very prosperous but you can get any drug you can imagine here; one has nothing to do with the other
- openfuture 10y ago
  Getting drugs in Iceland is laughably easy there are facebook groups (many!) Where dealers post pictures of products, the product range and a list of prices and a phone number where you can reach them. Drugs are expensive compared to elsewhere but you get free delivery. Any local would be able to access amphetamines, cocaine, weed, etc. Within an hour at almost any time of day. The police monitors these groups but beyond that is rather ineffective.
aylmao 10y ago
??? Please tell me how drug-use is a poor people problem, and rich people who can afford all the drugs they want without falling into debt, destroying their personal relationships or themselves get by. When poor people use drugs it's called a problem, but when rich-people use drugs it's called a party smh.
bobdole1234 10y ago
Golly. I wonder what we should try to fix.
forkandwait 10y ago
Ok, so why don't we work on fixing that? ... Oh wait, it costs money, time, organization...
akytt 10y ago
There. Exactly there. We have something they don't have, thus it won't work. Do you have any evidence that there is a link to poverty in any of this? Did you not read about results in Bucharest? Have you _been_ to Bucharest? No,you guys are no special snowflakes and until somebody has tried a similar program with similar funding levels, engagement and duration and has found it not to work, you don't get to say "we have poverty".
- _archon_ 10y ago
  I agree with akytt, though I think there's a more general truth in play that hasn't been noted. Ongoing poverty perpetuates itself, which is why none of the short-term programs in the US have had lasting impact. We succeed, and find a way to uplift a cohort of people from poverty, but we don't address the root cause which would reduce the rate at which people enter into poverty. And so, a similar size group slides in to fill the uplifted cohort's place. When economic circumstances are favorable, fewer people are in poverty. Other times, more. Creating permanent economic booms would be great, but we don't know how to do it long-term. What we do know how to do is to ensure that youths have the opportunity to learn, grow, and become self-aware before they enter the high-risk period of their adult lives. In the US, the focus is on access to academic education. We don't really address personal growth and self-awareness, except in using punishments to force youths to adhere to rules and conform to a certain degree. Trill-i-am (GP) argues that perpetual poverty will engender escapism, resulting in drug use and reducing or neutralizing any productive effects of such a system in the US. Akytt (P) notes that the system is adjusted to fit the circumstances when implemented. I propose that on a longer time scale this program may result in a reduction of poverty because individual adults will be more likely to do something productive with their emotional energy and free time. The program puts kids in a situation where they can freely make self-directed choices that can improve themselves or uplift a team. I have two questions. I would like to know what the average TV/[non-self-directed streaming] time is for kids in the US and Iceland. I would like to know what happens to local (adult and child both) poverty rates as well as adult drug use rates in sustained program cities and in comparable non-program cities over time.
akytt 10y ago
There. Exactly there. We have something they don't have, thus it won't work. Do you have any evidence that there is a link to poverty in any of this? Did you not read about results in Bucharest? Have you _been_ to Bucharest? No,you guys are no special snowflakes and until somebody has tried a similar program with similar funding levels, engagement and duration and has found it not to work, you don't get to say "we have poverty".

mjolk 10y ago

Reducing non-legal-substance abuse is considerably easier in Iceland as well; comparative to the US, it's quite difficult to find drugs in Iceland -- they don't have an equivalent Mexico[0] (or other similarly unstable country) for which narcotics can trivially flow through as Iceland is an island. [0] https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/mx.html https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/... see transnational issues, illicit drugs

aylmao 10y ago
Where there's demand, there's supply. Mexico wouldn't be such a drug-trafficking powerhouse if it didn't have the world's biggest consumer market right above.
- mjolk 10y ago
  Without getting into a discussion of addiction, the choices of those at risk of addiction, decision making in young adults, or any other aspect of this kerfuffle, even if Iceland had the demand, they wouldn't have the supply -- it's incredibly hard to get high on drugs that aren't physically there. Access is a major factor.
  - flukus 10y ago
    They might not have anything that needs to be imported en masse, but they would still have drugs that are trivial to produce locally, like weed and meth.
    - mjolk 10y ago
      Sure, weed or shake-and-bake meth is going to happen, but weed isn't very serious (compared to heroin or cocaine) and small-scale production of hard drugs will yield impure, weak product at a rate that won't support societal usage (and ramping up production requires infrastructure that _would_ get noticed on a small island).
      - flukus 10y ago
        I think you'd be surprised at how much can be produced locally when you don't have competitors with an economy of scale.
  - aylmao 10y ago
    Bro, drug-dealing is a multi-billion enterprise. Drug dealers are using 747s, submarines, tunnels, speed-boats, etc to supply. Trust me, there IS drugs in Iceland. And I can asure you, if there were a spike in demand drug dealers wouldn't fold their arms. Locals would grow weed/cook meth in their backyard and find ways to smuggle foreign product too.
    - mjolk 10y ago
      > Bro, drug-dealing is a multi-billion enterprise. Drug dealers are using 747s, submarines, tunnels, speed-boats, etc to supply...Trust me, there IS drugs in Iceland. Grammatically, 'there "are" drugs in Iceland', but that's besides the point. Anecdotally, I've been around them in Iceland and they were treated as a rarity and not like they are here (northeast US), where I could find them within 30 minutes of asking. It's quite difficult to make a tunnel or a submarine that travels from Mexico from Iceland. There are few airports in Iceland and they take smuggling quite seriously as by-air is one of the very few ways to transport illicit goods. Finally, the social mores around production of methamphetamine are far different than hearing someone you know took a pill while partying. Ease of supply chain deeply matters. edit: Also, please don't call me "bro"
      - aylmao 10y ago
        > Also, please don't call me "bro" Sorry, won't do. > Grammatically, 'there "are" drugs in Iceland', but that's besides the point. Welp, honest gramatical mistake from a non-native speaker. Even the best of us make mistakes sometimes, thanks for the correction. Having said that, please don't correct me any more, I personally felt it more pedantic than helpful, and I think you can read over small issues like that to keep conversation centered on what matters (: > Anecdotally, I've been around them in Iceland and they were treated as a rarity and not like they are here (northeast US), where I could find them within 30 minutes of asking. Anecdotally, I go to school in the northeast US, and I know the density of consumers there is pretty high; I assume higher than Iceland. Unsurprising there's dealers all over too. -- I see what debate we're falling into here; does supply create it's own demand? There's plenty of literature on the issue, and I will agree with you in that the easy of supply matters. Your original comment and subsequent replies make me believe you think drugs is a supply-centered issue, when in fact thats far from true, and I know this for two reasons: 1. The US has for years been on a "war on drugs", and now they brought Mexico into it. Yet this hasn't been effective at all as a means of stopping drug consumption. 2. Island tackled drug demand instead, and it had fantastic results. Is supply in Iceland constrained? For certain drugs perhaps. But this doesn't matter to the main point of the article. We can have a look at a point I made you didn't address; weed. Weed consumption is on the ground in Iceland, yet anyone could grow weed in their backyard to satisfy supply. Alcohol is legal in Iceland too, I suppose there is a lot of supply. 20 years ago, they were trying to cut supply and it didn't work. So now they did something different, and it worked. Look, if you think the reason the US is in such a bad drug situation all because of Mexico, I can't convince you you're wrong, you'll have to figure that one out on your own. What would convince you of this? What data is needed to convince people like you of the fact the problem is in the demand and so the US should focus on the well-being of its population instead of paying lots of money so Mexicans kill each other?
- netsharc 10y ago
  Indeed. Just look at the painkiller abuse in USA to see that substance abuse is the problem, whether legal or not is irrelevant.
  - mjolk 10y ago
    There's a marked difference between a xanax-popping soccer-mom and level of access required to create endemic addiction in teenagers.
    - dromen 10y ago
      Like how moms aren't "levels of access"? I don't understand what you're trying to say.
      - fragmede 10y ago
        In a uniquely American way, the teenager doesn't have access to a doctor, may not have access to a car, almost certainly doesn't have access to public transportation. How then, do they get drugs? Via slightly older drug-dealing friends from school, which is different enough from a mom who goes to the doctor, gets a prescription, and simply fills it from a pharmacy.
mundo 10y ago
How is this relevant to the results of the program described in the article? Iceland was still an island thirty years ago, yes? Also it's not clear how this is related to either parent comment. Seems like it was just tacked on here to be higher in the thread.
NKCSS 10y ago
Netherlands is very prosperous but you can get any drug you can imagine here; one has nothing to do with the other
openfuture 10y ago
Getting drugs in Iceland is laughably easy there are facebook groups (many!) Where dealers post pictures of products, the product range and a list of prices and a phone number where you can reach them. Drugs are expensive compared to elsewhere but you get free delivery. Any local would be able to access amphetamines, cocaine, weed, etc. Within an hour at almost any time of day. The police monitors these groups but beyond that is rather ineffective.

aylmao 10y ago

??? Please tell me how drug-use is a poor people problem, and rich people who can afford all the drugs they want without falling into debt, destroying their personal relationships or themselves get by. When poor people use drugs it's called a problem, but when rich-people use drugs it's called a party smh.

bobdole1234 10y ago

Golly. I wonder what we should try to fix.

forkandwait 10y ago

Ok, so why don't we work on fixing that? ... Oh wait, it costs money, time, organization...

akytt 10y ago

There. Exactly there. We have something they don't have, thus it won't work. Do you have any evidence that there is a link to poverty in any of this? Did you not read about results in Bucharest? Have you _been_ to Bucharest? No,you guys are no special snowflakes and until somebody has tried a similar program with similar funding levels, engagement and duration and has found it not to work, you don't get to say "we have poverty".

_archon_ 10y ago
I agree with akytt, though I think there's a more general truth in play that hasn't been noted. Ongoing poverty perpetuates itself, which is why none of the short-term programs in the US have had lasting impact. We succeed, and find a way to uplift a cohort of people from poverty, but we don't address the root cause which would reduce the rate at which people enter into poverty. And so, a similar size group slides in to fill the uplifted cohort's place. When economic circumstances are favorable, fewer people are in poverty. Other times, more. Creating permanent economic booms would be great, but we don't know how to do it long-term. What we do know how to do is to ensure that youths have the opportunity to learn, grow, and become self-aware before they enter the high-risk period of their adult lives. In the US, the focus is on access to academic education. We don't really address personal growth and self-awareness, except in using punishments to force youths to adhere to rules and conform to a certain degree. Trill-i-am (GP) argues that perpetual poverty will engender escapism, resulting in drug use and reducing or neutralizing any productive effects of such a system in the US. Akytt (P) notes that the system is adjusted to fit the circumstances when implemented. I propose that on a longer time scale this program may result in a reduction of poverty because individual adults will be more likely to do something productive with their emotional energy and free time. The program puts kids in a situation where they can freely make self-directed choices that can improve themselves or uplift a team. I have two questions. I would like to know what the average TV/[non-self-directed streaming] time is for kids in the US and Iceland. I would like to know what happens to local (adult and child both) poverty rates as well as adult drug use rates in sustained program cities and in comparable non-program cities over time.

akytt 10y ago