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Sure, but Iceland is so very different from America in so many ways, that it's fair to point that out. Alcohol for example - there was never any taboo about dr

Sure, but Iceland is so very different from America in so many ways, that it's fair to point that out. Alcohol for example - there was never any taboo about drinking in Iceland. It was never seen as a justice issue before or after the program. Also - the communities as a whole were never failing. You had 'decent families', decent municipalities etc.. I'd imagine, in most of America where there is decent governance, decent jobs, good families: there is not a massive problem with smoking and alcohol. There might be issues with marijuana and hard drugs possibly, both of which represent a different kind of issue entirely. To me - the 'Iceland' solution seems pretty straightforward on the scale of 'social malaise' to deal with. 14 year olds getting drunk and smoking - just by 'cracking down' a little bit on under-age serving, liquor stores/cigarettes - changing a few laws, trying to change social norms - you'd likely be able to move the needle a bit. A more integrated social program would yield even better benefits as we see. But imagine an Aboriginal community trying to do the same thing: there is usually a lack of coherent leadership, lack of basic justice and trust in the justice system, lack of funds, and much deeper social problems (incidence of rape is through the roof, there's a lot of violence, suicide etc.), there's poverty, joblessness, and very few have any hope for the future. Now that puts alcohol abuse in a different category. If there were 'normal suburbs' in America with vicious underage drinking and smoking problems, I'd say Iceland provides a good solution. Outside of that, I think it's much more complex.

mattnewton 10y ago
Sure, YMMV, but is America's current system putting up results positive enough that we shouldn't try something new? (I'd argue it's an abject failure anyway you measure it)
mundo 10y ago
Aside from the fact that this is 100% speculation on 0 data and sounds to me to be both wrong[1] and more than a little bit biased, why would this complaint even matter if it were true? "It won't work as well in a shitty poor neighborhood as it will in a nice one" is very likely going to be true of every attempt to reduce every social ill. It doesn't follow that they wouldn't work at all or would not be worth the cost or should not be tried. 1. I can't find drinking-by-income data, but anecdotally, I think the idea that underaged drinking and smoking is only a problem in poor neighborhoods would make most Americans laugh out loud.
- edblarney 10y ago
  "[1] I can't find drinking-by-income data, but anecdotally" Wow, your "non-reference reference" is a brilliant way to criticize that my comment was not based on factual reference! I didn't say that 'drinking and smoking' is only a problem in 'poor neighbourhoods'. So your comment is not relevant. In fact, I didn't even refer to 'poor neighbourhoods', I indicated 'Aboriginal communities' in particular - where the problems are systematic and acute. What is 'laughable' is that anyone would consider that the total social break-down in Aboriginal communities - and the issues that some kids in wealthy areas are remotely related, or should be treated the same way. In Scandinavian countries, as I mentioned, there is no 'taboo' about drinking. It's 'not positive' but nevertheless 'socially acceptable' to be a kid, drinking every so often. A 'drunk 14 year old' is nothing to make a huge fuss about. Of course, 'a community of drunk 14 year olds' is. In America - there would indeed be much fuss over a single incidence of fairly underage drinking. It's not socially accepted. There are basically zero middle or upper class areas in America wherein 42% of 14-16 year year olds have been 'drunk in the last month' and also none where 25% of 14-16 year olds are smoking. In America overall, the data (which was trivial to find) has it at about 5% [1] (using average of 8th grade and 10th grade). As it would stand America already has lower teen drunkenness than Iceland even after Icelands 'amazing social program'. Iceland before: 41%, after: 7%. America now: 5%. Whoops! Also - smoking is definitely a much greater issue among lower economic classes, this is consistent in most advanced countries. Drinking - it's a mixed bag. College kids drink the most of any group. [1] https://responsibility.org/get-the-facts/research/statistics/underage-drinking-statistics/ https://responsibility.org/get-the-facts/research/statistics...
  - mundo 10y ago
    > As it would stand America already has lower teen drunkenness than Iceland even after Icelands 'amazing social program'. Whoops! That would be a real zinger if I had said it wasn't. Look, I'm not sure what you're on about, but it doesn't seem to be related to my comment. Could you go find someone who disagrees with whatever-it-is you think about Aboriginal communities and argue with them?
- dinkumthinkum 10y ago
aylmao 10y ago
You make it seem like alcohol and drugs are mostly problems of the poor / slums. I've been to rich communities, and that's where I see perhaps the most drug and alcohol consumption, all in the name of "fun" (Hell, I even unfortunately know more than a few people who as teenagers got drunk on Moet, but that's a whole other tier). Of course, in troublesome communities people will seek refuge in drugs, but "normal" suburbs are not immune to it, it just manifests differently. Edit: Gonna add, drugs are expensive. If anything, I think I'd assume economically troubled people have a harder time maintaining a drug-filled lifestyle.
cr1895 10y ago
>Alcohol for example - there was never any taboo about drinking in Iceland. Over 60% of Icelandic voters voted for complete alcohol prohibition in 1915, and in 1933 much of the ban was lifted; however it wasn't until 1989 that all of the restrictions were removed. I don't know how you can say it was never taboo or an issue of justice. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_in_Iceland#Prohibition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_in_Iceland#Prohibition

mattnewton 10y ago

Sure, YMMV, but is America's current system putting up results positive enough that we shouldn't try something new? (I'd argue it's an abject failure anyway you measure it)

mundo 10y ago

Aside from the fact that this is 100% speculation on 0 data and sounds to me to be both wrong[1] and more than a little bit biased, why would this complaint even matter if it were true? "It won't work as well in a shitty poor neighborhood as it will in a nice one" is very likely going to be true of every attempt to reduce every social ill. It doesn't follow that they wouldn't work at all or would not be worth the cost or should not be tried. 1. I can't find drinking-by-income data, but anecdotally, I think the idea that underaged drinking and smoking is only a problem in poor neighborhoods would make most Americans laugh out loud.

edblarney 10y ago
"[1] I can't find drinking-by-income data, but anecdotally" Wow, your "non-reference reference" is a brilliant way to criticize that my comment was not based on factual reference! I didn't say that 'drinking and smoking' is only a problem in 'poor neighbourhoods'. So your comment is not relevant. In fact, I didn't even refer to 'poor neighbourhoods', I indicated 'Aboriginal communities' in particular - where the problems are systematic and acute. What is 'laughable' is that anyone would consider that the total social break-down in Aboriginal communities - and the issues that some kids in wealthy areas are remotely related, or should be treated the same way. In Scandinavian countries, as I mentioned, there is no 'taboo' about drinking. It's 'not positive' but nevertheless 'socially acceptable' to be a kid, drinking every so often. A 'drunk 14 year old' is nothing to make a huge fuss about. Of course, 'a community of drunk 14 year olds' is. In America - there would indeed be much fuss over a single incidence of fairly underage drinking. It's not socially accepted. There are basically zero middle or upper class areas in America wherein 42% of 14-16 year year olds have been 'drunk in the last month' and also none where 25% of 14-16 year olds are smoking. In America overall, the data (which was trivial to find) has it at about 5% [1] (using average of 8th grade and 10th grade). As it would stand America already has lower teen drunkenness than Iceland even after Icelands 'amazing social program'. Iceland before: 41%, after: 7%. America now: 5%. Whoops! Also - smoking is definitely a much greater issue among lower economic classes, this is consistent in most advanced countries. Drinking - it's a mixed bag. College kids drink the most of any group. [1] https://responsibility.org/get-the-facts/research/statistics/underage-drinking-statistics/ https://responsibility.org/get-the-facts/research/statistics...
- mundo 10y ago
  > As it would stand America already has lower teen drunkenness than Iceland even after Icelands 'amazing social program'. Whoops! That would be a real zinger if I had said it wasn't. Look, I'm not sure what you're on about, but it doesn't seem to be related to my comment. Could you go find someone who disagrees with whatever-it-is you think about Aboriginal communities and argue with them?
dinkumthinkum 10y ago

aylmao 10y ago

You make it seem like alcohol and drugs are mostly problems of the poor / slums. I've been to rich communities, and that's where I see perhaps the most drug and alcohol consumption, all in the name of "fun" (Hell, I even unfortunately know more than a few people who as teenagers got drunk on Moet, but that's a whole other tier). Of course, in troublesome communities people will seek refuge in drugs, but "normal" suburbs are not immune to it, it just manifests differently. Edit: Gonna add, drugs are expensive. If anything, I think I'd assume economically troubled people have a harder time maintaining a drug-filled lifestyle.

cr1895 10y ago

>Alcohol for example - there was never any taboo about drinking in Iceland. Over 60% of Icelandic voters voted for complete alcohol prohibition in 1915, and in 1933 much of the ban was lifted; however it wasn't until 1989 that all of the restrictions were removed. I don't know how you can say it was never taboo or an issue of justice. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_in_Iceland#Prohibition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_in_Iceland#Prohibition