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There are few places on earth with the natural, intellectual and creative abundance of California. It's absolutely inexcusable that we are in this situation.

by uuilly 16y ago

crocowhile 16y ago
What if high taxation somehow contributed to make CA what it is?
- jquery 16y ago
  I think smart, risk-taking people coming to California for its great climate, beautiful landscapes, and rich natural resources had more to do with it. California had the biggest net exodus of people in 2008 according to the US Census. I doubt that is because of California's great climate, beautiful landscapes, and rich natural resources... I think to the extent high taxes and regulations are responsible for California being what it is, they are no longer serving the people of California's best interests.
  - evgen 16y ago
    The smart, risk-taking people came to California because that is where all of the other similar people are. The first ones came here because for a while California had some of the best infrastructure and education system in the nation. Bar none. Prep 13 pretty much ended that dream and now we suffer through the consequent boom or bust state finance cycles, a dysfunctional statewide political system that entrenches political extremists, and an equally moronic voter initiative system that ends up causing more and more damage every year. While there was a large net exodus in 2008 (and a similar one in 2000-2001) there were also massive inflows prior to the economic downturns associated with those years.
  - kscaldef 16y ago
    I didn't leave California because of the taxes (I moved to another state with nearly identically high taxes). I left because, despite being in the 95th percentile of income nationally, I couldn't afford to buy a house in a decent neighborhood with decent schools.
    - jquery 16y ago
      What reasons can you think of for California being unable to build enough housing to keep prices affordable? Do you think zoning and property restrictions and regulations might be related? As someone who is interested in the California real estate market, I'm wondering what the fundamentals are that keep the prices so much higher than other states. It seems like earning money here and moving into a much larger house elsewhere might be the smarter move.
      - _delirium 16y ago
        California has amongst the most extensive urban sprawl in the entire country, so it's strange to think of it as a place where zoning and property restrictions restrict supply. LA is world-famous for its urban sprawl and car culture! And in the Bay Area, you can drive from Millbrae to Gilroy while going through nothing but endless suburbs for 65 miles. Meanwhile, Portland has super-restrictive growth and zoning policies, and is much cheaper. So I think there are more factors at work.
      - kscaldef 16y ago
        The "decent neighborhoods" are fully built out in LA. New development is an hour drive (without traffic) from the interesting parts of the city. What priced me out of the housing market was a) extremely high demand in the areas of the city with decent livability and decent schools and b) the willingness of people to take on extremely risky loans to buy those houses. (Since I had this silly, old-fashioned idea that I would only buy a house I could afford with 20% down and a 30-year fixed, the initial monthly payments I was looking at were nearly twice that of the people doing 90/10 option ARMs.)
stretchwithme 16y ago
I agree. With all the brains, you'd think we wouldn't let the government abuse us so much. perhaps its just the fact that California is so huge and local control over expenditures is really, really gone. Its much easier to use people when they're far away and not your neighbors. Its a lot harder to see exactly how you're being bled dry when there are 18 layers of obfuscation.
- jacoblyles 16y ago
  It suffers from the same issues that the federal government does: democracy doesn't scale. The larger the task of governing, the harder it is, the more room for graft and waste, rent-seeking and inefficiency. The US is the largest economy in the world and last I checked California is the 5th. Places like Sweden have higher taxes, but they also have a much more manageable task of governance and more efficient public sectors. You put some tax money into the Swedish government and you might get some valuable services out of it. You give some to Uncle Sam or Uncle Arnold, and it is disappearing in some corporate/union/special interest pocket through some thousand-page bill.
  - stretchwithme 16y ago
    exactly. the smaller the country, the better run it seems. I like Switzerland's model. its impossible for someone to siphon off resources when the democracy consists of 10 people and almost certain to happen when there's 50 million. Of course, the naysayers will tell you that complex societies are tough to manage and require more government, but that's bunk. It should require less government, as there is far less border per person to defend.
ars 16y ago
On the behalf of the other places on earth: "I object!"

There are few places on earth with the natural, intellectual and creative abundance of California. It's absolutely inexcusable that we are in this situation.

by uuilly 16y ago

There are few places on earth with the natural, intellectual and creative abundance of California. It's absolutely inexcusable that we are in this situation.

crocowhile 16y ago

What if high taxation somehow contributed to make CA what it is?

jquery 16y ago
I think smart, risk-taking people coming to California for its great climate, beautiful landscapes, and rich natural resources had more to do with it. California had the biggest net exodus of people in 2008 according to the US Census. I doubt that is because of California's great climate, beautiful landscapes, and rich natural resources... I think to the extent high taxes and regulations are responsible for California being what it is, they are no longer serving the people of California's best interests.
- evgen 16y ago
  The smart, risk-taking people came to California because that is where all of the other similar people are. The first ones came here because for a while California had some of the best infrastructure and education system in the nation. Bar none. Prep 13 pretty much ended that dream and now we suffer through the consequent boom or bust state finance cycles, a dysfunctional statewide political system that entrenches political extremists, and an equally moronic voter initiative system that ends up causing more and more damage every year. While there was a large net exodus in 2008 (and a similar one in 2000-2001) there were also massive inflows prior to the economic downturns associated with those years.
- kscaldef 16y ago
  I didn't leave California because of the taxes (I moved to another state with nearly identically high taxes). I left because, despite being in the 95th percentile of income nationally, I couldn't afford to buy a house in a decent neighborhood with decent schools.
  - jquery 16y ago
    What reasons can you think of for California being unable to build enough housing to keep prices affordable? Do you think zoning and property restrictions and regulations might be related? As someone who is interested in the California real estate market, I'm wondering what the fundamentals are that keep the prices so much higher than other states. It seems like earning money here and moving into a much larger house elsewhere might be the smarter move.
    - _delirium 16y ago
      California has amongst the most extensive urban sprawl in the entire country, so it's strange to think of it as a place where zoning and property restrictions restrict supply. LA is world-famous for its urban sprawl and car culture! And in the Bay Area, you can drive from Millbrae to Gilroy while going through nothing but endless suburbs for 65 miles. Meanwhile, Portland has super-restrictive growth and zoning policies, and is much cheaper. So I think there are more factors at work.
    - kscaldef 16y ago
      The "decent neighborhoods" are fully built out in LA. New development is an hour drive (without traffic) from the interesting parts of the city. What priced me out of the housing market was a) extremely high demand in the areas of the city with decent livability and decent schools and b) the willingness of people to take on extremely risky loans to buy those houses. (Since I had this silly, old-fashioned idea that I would only buy a house I could afford with 20% down and a 30-year fixed, the initial monthly payments I was looking at were nearly twice that of the people doing 90/10 option ARMs.)

stretchwithme 16y ago

I agree. With all the brains, you'd think we wouldn't let the government abuse us so much. perhaps its just the fact that California is so huge and local control over expenditures is really, really gone. Its much easier to use people when they're far away and not your neighbors. Its a lot harder to see exactly how you're being bled dry when there are 18 layers of obfuscation.

jacoblyles 16y ago
It suffers from the same issues that the federal government does: democracy doesn't scale. The larger the task of governing, the harder it is, the more room for graft and waste, rent-seeking and inefficiency. The US is the largest economy in the world and last I checked California is the 5th. Places like Sweden have higher taxes, but they also have a much more manageable task of governance and more efficient public sectors. You put some tax money into the Swedish government and you might get some valuable services out of it. You give some to Uncle Sam or Uncle Arnold, and it is disappearing in some corporate/union/special interest pocket through some thousand-page bill.
- stretchwithme 16y ago
  exactly. the smaller the country, the better run it seems. I like Switzerland's model. its impossible for someone to siphon off resources when the democracy consists of 10 people and almost certain to happen when there's 50 million. Of course, the naysayers will tell you that complex societies are tough to manage and require more government, but that's bunk. It should require less government, as there is far less border per person to defend.

ars 16y ago

On the behalf of the other places on earth: "I object!"