8 ms·

With a side order of trying to cash-in/virtue-signal on "inclusion" (watch the carousel and read the tone of their landing page copy) as per recent blog posts a

by mjolk 10y ago

With a side order of trying to cash-in/virtue-signal on "inclusion" (watch the carousel and read the tone of their landing page copy) as per recent blog posts and projects[1]. Mozilla's technology and their niche place in the internet ecosystem put them in the "hacker", in the traditional sense of the word, realm in (at least) my mind, where ideas matter and not identity politics -- this rebrand sells they idea that they're more focused on marketing and image than progress. Good luck folks, but you can keep your politics; my default is now suspicion of your content. 1) https://blog.coralproject.net/the-real-name-fallacy/ https://blog.coralproject.net/the-real-name-fallacy/ (the text, source materials are a nightmare)

tobr 10y ago
What is this term "virtue-signal" supposed to mean? I see it thrown around all the time. It's such a vague and weird way to criticize something, but it seems to represent something that make a lot of people very upset. I looked at the carousel images at mozilla.org and skimmed the article about anonymity to try to decipher what you mean, but I'm not sure what I'm looking for. Could you be more specific – what is the "virtue signal", and why is it so problematic?
- mark_edward 10y ago
  Virtue signaling is term that had some scientific use but is mostly used online by people who don't like your morals, values, etc. Accuse you of doing if you display them at all in a public place. It's meant to be used to shut down anything but the most bland and status quo morality, by turning the simple act of showing any values at all into something nefarious instead something almost universal Someone says they want to hire more women, accuse of virtue signaling, rinse repeat. The thing is it works for literally any normative content.
  - tobr 10y ago
    Thanks. This makes me even more curious what were the values represented by the photos in the carousel, prompting mjolk to call them out as virtue signalling.
    - mjolk 10y ago
      In isolation, the photos in the carousel would not lead me to believe that Mozilla is virtue signaling as the photos are just pictures of people. The aggregate message from their ad copy and the specific choice to use loaded terms is what made me aware that they wanted to employ this strategy. However, to be cheeky, if you wanted to talk solely based on which photos passed editorial approval, compare those represented to the physical attributes of their leadership team: https://blog.mozilla.org/press/media-library/bios/ https://blog.mozilla.org/press/media-library/bios/
- stephancoral 10y ago
  It's the libertarian right's version of "triggered"
  - mjolk 10y ago
    Registered democrat and not at all a libertarian, but I appreciate your dismissive and disrespectful attitude. Thank you for your contribution.
- mjolk 10y ago
  > What is this term "virtue-signal" supposed to mean? As other people mentioned, it's an overused expression, but it's meant to call attention to an outward expression of a particular viewpoint or ideology, particularly with the aim of increasing the standing of an entity within a particular group. > why is it so problematic? Where it becomes "problematic" is when the need to communicate cohesion with a cause does so at the expense of reality or otherwise weakens a campaign. Whereas before I stood in unwavering support of Mozilla, their language now seeks to define their company as the crusader against the "others" who would seek a less "inclusive" or "respectful" internet, and coupled with their imagery, they, as a company, are communicating identity politics in those that they feel are underrepresented or deserve special attention based on physical attributes -- which goes counter to the "hacker" mentality against genetic fallacies/the ideal that an idea is more important than the physical attributes of the person that expressed it.
- paulddraper 10y ago
  > What is this term "virtue-signal" supposed to mean? LMGTFY https://www.google.com/search?q=virtue+signalling https://www.google.com/search?q=virtue+signalling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtue_signalling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtue_signalling Virtual signaling is a public demonstration of values, but usually with the negative connotation of an ulterior motive to improve social standing and collect praise. "Wearing your religion on your sleeve" is an older, similar expression. I don't think this applies here.
- rudolf0 10y ago
  "Greenwashing" is one common example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwashing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwashing It can also apply to anything that a culture considers virtuous or trendy, though.
stephancoral 10y ago
You are suspicious because a tech company - which maintains the second-most-used browser in the world - wants to be more inclusive, as in, make people feel more comfortable with their products and community? That's pretty sad.
- white-flame 10y ago
  Any time any large company takes on a new emotional or social posture, there is legitimate concern that it's just pandering and manipulating for business motives not social ones, and has little to no actual value to the concerns of your supposition. Also, Mozilla is a technology company, and the technology itself is mostly oblivious to social issues (unfamiliarity with UI metaphors being the most obvious barrier), so it comes across as a distraction in terms of effort, which is especially concerning to donors.
- mjolk 10y ago
  You're misunderstanding the suspicion in a way that makes me think that you already have a preconception of my worldview, which, in this case, is entirely inaccurate. You're painting this in a "either you agree with their marketing campaign and identity politics or you're against inclusion" way, which is the type of gross remnant this marketing strategy creates -- thank you for responding with example behavior. FWIW, IE is the second-most used browser; Firefox is becoming less relevant. Maybe this campaign is meant to counter their downward trend in popularity of consumer-software, but it seems like they want to go into content creation/ideology.
- slrz 10y ago
  No, but because they chose a big rebranding as the way to achieve those goals. At least that's how I read it.
  - mjolk 10y ago
    That's not what I was asserting, but I agree with this.
dang 10y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13428958 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13428958 and marked it off-topic.

by mjolk 10y ago

tobr 10y ago

What is this term "virtue-signal" supposed to mean? I see it thrown around all the time. It's such a vague and weird way to criticize something, but it seems to represent something that make a lot of people very upset. I looked at the carousel images at mozilla.org and skimmed the article about anonymity to try to decipher what you mean, but I'm not sure what I'm looking for. Could you be more specific – what is the "virtue signal", and why is it so problematic?

mark_edward 10y ago
Virtue signaling is term that had some scientific use but is mostly used online by people who don't like your morals, values, etc. Accuse you of doing if you display them at all in a public place. It's meant to be used to shut down anything but the most bland and status quo morality, by turning the simple act of showing any values at all into something nefarious instead something almost universal Someone says they want to hire more women, accuse of virtue signaling, rinse repeat. The thing is it works for literally any normative content.
- tobr 10y ago
  Thanks. This makes me even more curious what were the values represented by the photos in the carousel, prompting mjolk to call them out as virtue signalling.
  - mjolk 10y ago
    In isolation, the photos in the carousel would not lead me to believe that Mozilla is virtue signaling as the photos are just pictures of people. The aggregate message from their ad copy and the specific choice to use loaded terms is what made me aware that they wanted to employ this strategy. However, to be cheeky, if you wanted to talk solely based on which photos passed editorial approval, compare those represented to the physical attributes of their leadership team: https://blog.mozilla.org/press/media-library/bios/ https://blog.mozilla.org/press/media-library/bios/
stephancoral 10y ago
It's the libertarian right's version of "triggered"
- mjolk 10y ago
  Registered democrat and not at all a libertarian, but I appreciate your dismissive and disrespectful attitude. Thank you for your contribution.
mjolk 10y ago
> What is this term "virtue-signal" supposed to mean? As other people mentioned, it's an overused expression, but it's meant to call attention to an outward expression of a particular viewpoint or ideology, particularly with the aim of increasing the standing of an entity within a particular group. > why is it so problematic? Where it becomes "problematic" is when the need to communicate cohesion with a cause does so at the expense of reality or otherwise weakens a campaign. Whereas before I stood in unwavering support of Mozilla, their language now seeks to define their company as the crusader against the "others" who would seek a less "inclusive" or "respectful" internet, and coupled with their imagery, they, as a company, are communicating identity politics in those that they feel are underrepresented or deserve special attention based on physical attributes -- which goes counter to the "hacker" mentality against genetic fallacies/the ideal that an idea is more important than the physical attributes of the person that expressed it.
paulddraper 10y ago
> What is this term "virtue-signal" supposed to mean? LMGTFY https://www.google.com/search?q=virtue+signalling https://www.google.com/search?q=virtue+signalling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtue_signalling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtue_signalling Virtual signaling is a public demonstration of values, but usually with the negative connotation of an ulterior motive to improve social standing and collect praise. "Wearing your religion on your sleeve" is an older, similar expression. I don't think this applies here.
rudolf0 10y ago
"Greenwashing" is one common example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwashing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwashing It can also apply to anything that a culture considers virtuous or trendy, though.

stephancoral 10y ago

You are suspicious because a tech company - which maintains the second-most-used browser in the world - wants to be more inclusive, as in, make people feel more comfortable with their products and community? That's pretty sad.

white-flame 10y ago
Any time any large company takes on a new emotional or social posture, there is legitimate concern that it's just pandering and manipulating for business motives not social ones, and has little to no actual value to the concerns of your supposition. Also, Mozilla is a technology company, and the technology itself is mostly oblivious to social issues (unfamiliarity with UI metaphors being the most obvious barrier), so it comes across as a distraction in terms of effort, which is especially concerning to donors.
mjolk 10y ago
You're misunderstanding the suspicion in a way that makes me think that you already have a preconception of my worldview, which, in this case, is entirely inaccurate. You're painting this in a "either you agree with their marketing campaign and identity politics or you're against inclusion" way, which is the type of gross remnant this marketing strategy creates -- thank you for responding with example behavior. FWIW, IE is the second-most used browser; Firefox is becoming less relevant. Maybe this campaign is meant to counter their downward trend in popularity of consumer-software, but it seems like they want to go into content creation/ideology.
slrz 10y ago
No, but because they chose a big rebranding as the way to achieve those goals. At least that's how I read it.
- mjolk 10y ago
  That's not what I was asserting, but I agree with this.

dang 10y ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13428958 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13428958 and marked it off-topic.