6 ms·

Interestingly, swearing is discouraged here and in business in general.

by mhurron 10y ago

kornish 10y ago
By "here" you mean the US?
- pcl 10y ago
  I read it to mean "on HN".
  - mhurron 10y ago
    Yes, I meant on HN. It's 'unprofessional.' Of course, so is honesty.
notpc 10y ago
When meeting with clients or other teams in a big organization, it's obviously discouraged. When speaking with colleagues, it's discouraged only when there's people who are trigger-happy about complaining to HR. Fairly or not, women in particular have a reputation of running to HR when someone says something offensive or crude, which leads to them being excluded from office banter, which leads to them feeling left out of the group. Tough problem to solve. It makes sense really. You let the profanity flow when you feel that you can trust people. You're also most honest when you feel that you can trust people.
- cmdrfred 10y ago
  If I have to consider what I'm saying. Then I'm considering what I'm saying and I have a opportunity to spin it or outright lie. Straight off the cuff I can speak faster but don't have that chance.
  - carlmcqueen 10y ago
    I was raised in a home that didn't allow any swearing, swearing just really isn't in my active vocabulary. I totally swear when I stub my toe, when I forget something and I'm half way to work, but I never feel need the need to interject swears into common sentences. People comment that I don't swear often -- usually uncomfortably checking if I'm against it-- I'm not, I work in finance where there is a lot of swearing done and don't mind. Its just not part of the vocab I use. Interesting twist for me is that now that the kids are all grown up my mother swears and said she swore a lot before kids but 'gave it up' to make the rule real. Totally hard for my brain to handle.
- edgarvaldes 10y ago
  It reminds me of the famous article by Joel Spolsky about his first Bill Gates review [1] >In my BillG review meeting, the whole reporting hierarchy was there, along with their cousins, sisters, and aunts, and a person who came along from my team whose whole job during the meeting was to keep an accurate count of how many times Bill said the F word. The lower the f*-count, the better. Was Gates the only one allowed to swear? [1] https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/06/16/my-first-billg-review/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/06/16/my-first-billg-rev...
  - notpc 10y ago
    God bless Bill. I've also heard great stories of chairs being thrown (not at people, of course) in high-level Microsoft meetings. Can you imagine him getting away with it today though? Someone would have tried to sue him for creating a "hostile workplace" or something like that. We're getting too soft these days.
- moon_priestess 10y ago
  > Fairly or not, women in particular have a reputation of running to HR when someone says something offensive or crude, which leads to them being excluded from office banter, which leads to them feeling left out of the group. Tough problem to solve. Actually, it seems really easy to solve: Stop cursing so much at work and stop excluding women from your conversations. If you can't see the value of inclusiveness over cursing, you're the problem in the situation.
  - imesh 10y ago
    I love that instead of arguing that women don't do that, you argue that they do and it's OK. Wow. Glad I don't work in an American office.
    - moon_priestess 10y ago
      I didn't argue women do that. I've never encountered a woman who has done that. People can be made uncomfortable though by vulgar language. It shouldn't be used in an office setting to the point that it's making other people uncomfortable. Read those around you and try to be accommodating. This is basic stuff.
  - Quarrelsome 10y ago
    If I don't like how _you_ talk does it mean you are excluding me from your conversation? Slippery slope. What if I don't like the topics you bring up?
    - moon_priestess 10y ago
      This is not a slippery slope. All I'm saying is that you should prioritize making people feel included over using whatever vulgar language you want in the workplace. Do you disagree with that?
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
  - notpc 10y ago
ar15saveslives 10y ago
Anything that differs from uniform grey goo is discouraged in business.
roflc0ptic 10y ago
Straight honesty isn't always a virtue. Plus cussing signals lots of other things, too. I cuss a lot at work. But I don't cuss at people. I have a coworker that says things like "It's fucking ridiculous that X task isn't done" to the people who are doing that task. This dude is toxic to be around. I... think I'm not? We'll see how many of the people I'm managing still work here in a year, though. Hopefully all of them. So yeah. In addition to signaling honesty, cussing can be part of aggressively damaging relationships, which is something businesses (and HN) benefit from discouraging.
- nastygibbon 10y ago
  > Straight honesty isn't always a virtue. I find this an interesting statement. Would you mind providing some clear examples of a real-life situation where honesty isn't a virtue? I often find that lying is convenient (for the person lying) in the short term but its damage can be far reaching and difficult to predict. If you want to have meaningful and effective relationships (at home or at work) straight honesty is always beneficial. I do remember working with someone who had Alzheimer's disease. I stopped being honest with her quite quickly as I figured that repeatedly reminding her of her husband's death was wrong. But I can't think of any other examples of my life when straight honesty wasn't a virtue. What about you?
  - scrollaway 10y ago
    > Would you mind providing some clear examples of a real-life situation where honesty isn't a virtue? In most negotiations, you are usually at an advantage if you have more information than other parties. Lying/lack of transparency tend to work to your advantage in such situations. Of course, it depends on what, and there's context to that...
  - olkid 10y ago
    Years ago... I managed a 1MM retail shop in San Francisco; worked too many hours. Needed that "mental health" day off. I informed my regional manager. Within the hour, he called me back and said "next time, just lie to me. tell me your sick". I'm not entirely sure what transpired. I assume he had to report to higher-ups(and it didn't go over well?). But, that experience has always stuck with me. In general, I am honest & don't swear much.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
Quarrelsome 10y ago
The endless march of American Corporate Culture. I've watched every single one of my submissions to Stackoverflow that I contributed in my own free time slowly cleaned and all my character purged from it until it more or less sounds like an American infomercial. And when I complain about this American cultural belligerence all I get is a bunch of blithe, hollow muppets who have been drained of passion and love telling me that I'm unprofessional and not swearing is empirically better because. Fuck that shit. I have to pragmatically accept it as a fact of life but I _really_ despise it.
- hnhg 10y ago
  Controlling swearing is also part of British culture so it's unfair to lay the blame on Americans.
  - Quarrelsome 10y ago
    in the 70's perhaps. Not so much anymore and definitely much less so in the workplace. The: > thou shalt not swear on the internet programming community is really coloured by corporate and most corporate is American. The big argument I get is about corporate firewalls preventing access to any StackOverflow page with a cuss in it.
  - simonswords82 10y ago
    No not at all. I'm sorry but British TV and society in general are infinitely more open to swear words than the same in America.
  - jaclaz 10y ago
    There is a line somewhere between being "colourful" (and using some "bad words" when they are really needed) which may be "unpolite" or "inappropriate" according to the British and being NOT "politically correct" according to the Americans. The first can easily be "fixed" for the more sensitive audience by using synonyms or some asterisk/hyphen substitution, or more generally toning it down a bit, and is - if I am allowed to use the two words together - substantially formal only. The second is instead IMHO a bigger issue, because it implies a form of (self or coming from the society) imposed censorship on the "concepts". The Americans that have in theory the most permissive (thanks to first amendment) Laws on the right of expressing one's opinion have seemingly in practice a lot more "forbidden" topics (in the sense of topics on which your opinion "must" conform to the society accepted take on the matter). At least this is my impression.
psyc 10y ago
I personally haven't found it particularly discouraged in business. But it is really, really discouraged in church.

Interestingly, swearing is discouraged here and in business in general.

by mhurron 10y ago

Interestingly, swearing is discouraged here and in business in general.

kornish 10y ago

By "here" you mean the US?

pcl 10y ago
I read it to mean "on HN".
- mhurron 10y ago
  Yes, I meant on HN. It's 'unprofessional.' Of course, so is honesty.

notpc 10y ago

When meeting with clients or other teams in a big organization, it's obviously discouraged. When speaking with colleagues, it's discouraged only when there's people who are trigger-happy about complaining to HR. Fairly or not, women in particular have a reputation of running to HR when someone says something offensive or crude, which leads to them being excluded from office banter, which leads to them feeling left out of the group. Tough problem to solve. It makes sense really. You let the profanity flow when you feel that you can trust people. You're also most honest when you feel that you can trust people.

cmdrfred 10y ago
If I have to consider what I'm saying. Then I'm considering what I'm saying and I have a opportunity to spin it or outright lie. Straight off the cuff I can speak faster but don't have that chance.
- carlmcqueen 10y ago
  I was raised in a home that didn't allow any swearing, swearing just really isn't in my active vocabulary. I totally swear when I stub my toe, when I forget something and I'm half way to work, but I never feel need the need to interject swears into common sentences. People comment that I don't swear often -- usually uncomfortably checking if I'm against it-- I'm not, I work in finance where there is a lot of swearing done and don't mind. Its just not part of the vocab I use. Interesting twist for me is that now that the kids are all grown up my mother swears and said she swore a lot before kids but 'gave it up' to make the rule real. Totally hard for my brain to handle.
edgarvaldes 10y ago
It reminds me of the famous article by Joel Spolsky about his first Bill Gates review [1] >In my BillG review meeting, the whole reporting hierarchy was there, along with their cousins, sisters, and aunts, and a person who came along from my team whose whole job during the meeting was to keep an accurate count of how many times Bill said the F word. The lower the f*-count, the better. Was Gates the only one allowed to swear? [1] https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/06/16/my-first-billg-review/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/06/16/my-first-billg-rev...
- notpc 10y ago
  God bless Bill. I've also heard great stories of chairs being thrown (not at people, of course) in high-level Microsoft meetings. Can you imagine him getting away with it today though? Someone would have tried to sue him for creating a "hostile workplace" or something like that. We're getting too soft these days.
moon_priestess 10y ago
> Fairly or not, women in particular have a reputation of running to HR when someone says something offensive or crude, which leads to them being excluded from office banter, which leads to them feeling left out of the group. Tough problem to solve. Actually, it seems really easy to solve: Stop cursing so much at work and stop excluding women from your conversations. If you can't see the value of inclusiveness over cursing, you're the problem in the situation.
- imesh 10y ago
  I love that instead of arguing that women don't do that, you argue that they do and it's OK. Wow. Glad I don't work in an American office.
  - moon_priestess 10y ago
    I didn't argue women do that. I've never encountered a woman who has done that. People can be made uncomfortable though by vulgar language. It shouldn't be used in an office setting to the point that it's making other people uncomfortable. Read those around you and try to be accommodating. This is basic stuff.
- Quarrelsome 10y ago
  If I don't like how _you_ talk does it mean you are excluding me from your conversation? Slippery slope. What if I don't like the topics you bring up?
  - moon_priestess 10y ago
    This is not a slippery slope. All I'm saying is that you should prioritize making people feel included over using whatever vulgar language you want in the workplace. Do you disagree with that?
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- notpc 10y ago

ar15saveslives 10y ago

Anything that differs from uniform grey goo is discouraged in business.

roflc0ptic 10y ago

Straight honesty isn't always a virtue. Plus cussing signals lots of other things, too. I cuss a lot at work. But I don't cuss at people. I have a coworker that says things like "It's fucking ridiculous that X task isn't done" to the people who are doing that task. This dude is toxic to be around. I... think I'm not? We'll see how many of the people I'm managing still work here in a year, though. Hopefully all of them. So yeah. In addition to signaling honesty, cussing can be part of aggressively damaging relationships, which is something businesses (and HN) benefit from discouraging.

nastygibbon 10y ago
> Straight honesty isn't always a virtue. I find this an interesting statement. Would you mind providing some clear examples of a real-life situation where honesty isn't a virtue? I often find that lying is convenient (for the person lying) in the short term but its damage can be far reaching and difficult to predict. If you want to have meaningful and effective relationships (at home or at work) straight honesty is always beneficial. I do remember working with someone who had Alzheimer's disease. I stopped being honest with her quite quickly as I figured that repeatedly reminding her of her husband's death was wrong. But I can't think of any other examples of my life when straight honesty wasn't a virtue. What about you?
- scrollaway 10y ago
  > Would you mind providing some clear examples of a real-life situation where honesty isn't a virtue? In most negotiations, you are usually at an advantage if you have more information than other parties. Lying/lack of transparency tend to work to your advantage in such situations. Of course, it depends on what, and there's context to that...
- olkid 10y ago
  Years ago... I managed a 1MM retail shop in San Francisco; worked too many hours. Needed that "mental health" day off. I informed my regional manager. Within the hour, he called me back and said "next time, just lie to me. tell me your sick". I'm not entirely sure what transpired. I assume he had to report to higher-ups(and it didn't go over well?). But, that experience has always stuck with me. In general, I am honest & don't swear much.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

Quarrelsome 10y ago

The endless march of American Corporate Culture. I've watched every single one of my submissions to Stackoverflow that I contributed in my own free time slowly cleaned and all my character purged from it until it more or less sounds like an American infomercial. And when I complain about this American cultural belligerence all I get is a bunch of blithe, hollow muppets who have been drained of passion and love telling me that I'm unprofessional and not swearing is empirically better because. Fuck that shit. I have to pragmatically accept it as a fact of life but I _really_ despise it.

hnhg 10y ago
Controlling swearing is also part of British culture so it's unfair to lay the blame on Americans.
- Quarrelsome 10y ago
  in the 70's perhaps. Not so much anymore and definitely much less so in the workplace. The: > thou shalt not swear on the internet programming community is really coloured by corporate and most corporate is American. The big argument I get is about corporate firewalls preventing access to any StackOverflow page with a cuss in it.
- simonswords82 10y ago
  No not at all. I'm sorry but British TV and society in general are infinitely more open to swear words than the same in America.
- jaclaz 10y ago
  There is a line somewhere between being "colourful" (and using some "bad words" when they are really needed) which may be "unpolite" or "inappropriate" according to the British and being NOT "politically correct" according to the Americans. The first can easily be "fixed" for the more sensitive audience by using synonyms or some asterisk/hyphen substitution, or more generally toning it down a bit, and is - if I am allowed to use the two words together - substantially formal only. The second is instead IMHO a bigger issue, because it implies a form of (self or coming from the society) imposed censorship on the "concepts". The Americans that have in theory the most permissive (thanks to first amendment) Laws on the right of expressing one's opinion have seemingly in practice a lot more "forbidden" topics (in the sense of topics on which your opinion "must" conform to the society accepted take on the matter). At least this is my impression.

psyc 10y ago

I personally haven't found it particularly discouraged in business. But it is really, really discouraged in church.