4 ms·

It might be easy for the US to shoot down satellites, but so it might be for Europe. The whole point of this story is that the USA wants to be able to act with

by madez 10y ago

It might be easy for the US to shoot down satellites, but so it might be for Europe. The whole point of this story is that the USA wants to be able to act without Europe possibly having a say. That Europe agreed was wrong, I think.

mikeash 10y ago
My whole point is that the USA can act without Europe having a say, whether Europe likes it or not. It's only reasonable for Europe to take that into account in what they do. You can take some principled stand to make some sort of abstract point nobody will understand, and have the USA shoot down your satellites in the case of war. Or you can make a small change to your design and have the USA leave them alone. I don't see why taking the second option is so terrible.
- madez 10y ago
  If Europe had created Galileo like originally envisioned the USA could not jam Galileo without also jamming GPS. Hence they would need to ask Europe to turn of Galileo or turn Galileo off for them, i.e. shooting down the satellites, which Europe should treat as an act of war. Hence, neither of both options go without Europe having a say. The abstract point here is akin to mutually assured destruction. It keeps peace. Having Galileo like originally envisioned and Europe taking a robust defensive strategy w.r.t. to it's satellites would mean GPS for everybody or for nobody or war with Europe. And Europe should make sure nobody wants war with them.
  - dogma1138 10y ago
    The frequencies were selected to allow for easy compatibility with GPS not because the EU didn't want the US to be able to selectively jam Galileo. No one in Europe really thinks of a war with the US as a real possibility and since the know what ICBM stands for they also know they've lost before the first shot is fired.
- literallycancer 10y ago
  It's like giving the bully your lunch so they leave you alone.
  - mikeash 10y ago
    It's more like giving the bully his favorite seat. You can stand on principle, but the result will be more or less the same either way, and giving him what he wants doesn't hurt you.
    - madez 10y ago
      I think bullies should be treated with confrontative aggressiveness wherever possible until they stop bullying.
      - mikeash 10y ago
        That's a great strategy when you're a member of a society that mostly doesn't put up with bullying, and will ultimately be on your side if their aggression gets too much attention. It's a terrible strategy when you're living in an anarchy and the bully is as mighty as everybody else put together.
        madez 10y ago
        The strategy is also great if you can guarantee the bully mutual complete destruction.
        literallycancer 10y ago
        Yes. That's why I think a federal EU with united army and foreign policy stands a much better chance of achieving beneficial outcomes for its citizens.
- kuschku 10y ago
  > and have the USA shoot down your satellites in the case of war. And then we shoot down their satellites, too. The US acting like they can do whatever they want is extremely annoying and has to end, they’re just a country, not the king of the world.
  - powertower 10y ago
    > they’re just a country, not the king of the world. Militarily and economically the US is an empire (by definition, as its growth is tied to warfare, expansion, and dominance). Just like the British empire was before it. For example - it has 400 major, and another 400 minor, bases (some with nuclear-ready weapon systems) stationed in foreign countries. While no foreign country has a base in the US.
caf 10y ago
Of course, it cuts both ways. With the constellations on different frequencies, European powers also have the ability to engage in localised GPS jamming while leaving Galileo available for their military.

by madez 10y ago

mikeash 10y ago

My whole point is that the USA can act without Europe having a say, whether Europe likes it or not. It's only reasonable for Europe to take that into account in what they do. You can take some principled stand to make some sort of abstract point nobody will understand, and have the USA shoot down your satellites in the case of war. Or you can make a small change to your design and have the USA leave them alone. I don't see why taking the second option is so terrible.

madez 10y ago
If Europe had created Galileo like originally envisioned the USA could not jam Galileo without also jamming GPS. Hence they would need to ask Europe to turn of Galileo or turn Galileo off for them, i.e. shooting down the satellites, which Europe should treat as an act of war. Hence, neither of both options go without Europe having a say. The abstract point here is akin to mutually assured destruction. It keeps peace. Having Galileo like originally envisioned and Europe taking a robust defensive strategy w.r.t. to it's satellites would mean GPS for everybody or for nobody or war with Europe. And Europe should make sure nobody wants war with them.
- dogma1138 10y ago
  The frequencies were selected to allow for easy compatibility with GPS not because the EU didn't want the US to be able to selectively jam Galileo. No one in Europe really thinks of a war with the US as a real possibility and since the know what ICBM stands for they also know they've lost before the first shot is fired.
literallycancer 10y ago
It's like giving the bully your lunch so they leave you alone.
- mikeash 10y ago
  It's more like giving the bully his favorite seat. You can stand on principle, but the result will be more or less the same either way, and giving him what he wants doesn't hurt you.
  - madez 10y ago
    I think bullies should be treated with confrontative aggressiveness wherever possible until they stop bullying.
    - mikeash 10y ago
      That's a great strategy when you're a member of a society that mostly doesn't put up with bullying, and will ultimately be on your side if their aggression gets too much attention. It's a terrible strategy when you're living in an anarchy and the bully is as mighty as everybody else put together.
      - madez 10y ago
        The strategy is also great if you can guarantee the bully mutual complete destruction.
      - literallycancer 10y ago
        Yes. That's why I think a federal EU with united army and foreign policy stands a much better chance of achieving beneficial outcomes for its citizens.
kuschku 10y ago
> and have the USA shoot down your satellites in the case of war. And then we shoot down their satellites, too. The US acting like they can do whatever they want is extremely annoying and has to end, they’re just a country, not the king of the world.
- powertower 10y ago
  > they’re just a country, not the king of the world. Militarily and economically the US is an empire (by definition, as its growth is tied to warfare, expansion, and dominance). Just like the British empire was before it. For example - it has 400 major, and another 400 minor, bases (some with nuclear-ready weapon systems) stationed in foreign countries. While no foreign country has a base in the US.

caf 10y ago

Of course, it cuts both ways. With the constellations on different frequencies, European powers also have the ability to engage in localised GPS jamming while leaving Galileo available for their military.