8 ms·

Apparently they wanted to make it even more accurate, but got pushback from USA before they feared it would be used by hostile forces.

Klathmon 10y ago
What's the fear with more accuracy? From my (completely layman) perspective once you've got a meter or so of accuracy, you've got what you need for weapons. What's further accuracy get you that some nations are against everyone having?
- nathancahill 10y ago
  A similar thing happens with commercial imagery satellites. Companies are forced to downsample their high resolution govt-only images to 30cm for the general public.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - blackaspen 10y ago
    My understanding is that it's not exactly "by force" but rather a condition of funding. The U.S. Government is probably Digital Globe's largest customer.
    - blackguardx 10y ago
      No, it is by force. It is similar to ITAR regulations. If you break that rule, your management team is probably going to jail. It would be akin to spying for a foreign power. Source: I used to do some consulting for a satellite imagery company.
  - maxerickson 10y ago
    That's slightly different though, better imagery makes it possible to resolve more features. With the improved positional accuracy it's a 2 meter circle vs a 1 meter circle. What tactics does a 1 meter circle enable that the 2 meter circle does not enable? Also, DigitalGlobe only has 30 cm capability: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WorldView-4 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WorldView-4 Who is downsampling (DigitalGlobe/GeoEye was downsampling earlier 40 cm imagery for Google, to 50cm)?
- michaelt 10y ago
  There's no fear about accuracy - the plan is that Galileo will charge for high precision services. Indeed, you can buy centimeter-precision GPS services right now for applications like surveying and precision farming [1] - those are small markets, of course; self-driving cars are the real prize. The objection from the US amounted to the fact an early Galileo design would have reduced their ability to degrade satellite navigation in war zones. Later the design was changed, so the US can jam Galileo - which avoids the US objection, but makes Galileo less useful as a backup. [1] http://www.trimble.com/Positioning-Services/Trimble-RTX.aspx http://www.trimble.com/Positioning-Services/Trimble-RTX.aspx
madez 10y ago
I'm very disappointed that the EU bowed to their demands. It is the second clear sign I know that Europe dances to the USA's pipe; the other one was the grounding of the bolivian presidents plane in 2013. I hope that Europe eventually stops giving in to demands by the USA. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evo_Morales_grounding_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evo_Morales_grounding_incident
- trimbo 10y ago
  Or maybe the European team simply agreed with the concern?
  - madez 10y ago
    Now, that is a valid concern. So far the first I read. Maybe some countries in Europe also wanted to see Snowden catched.
    - dogma1138 10y ago
      You do understand that the security concerns of Europe and the US are mostly overlapping right?
      - madez 10y ago
        Exactly, mostly. I think Europe should have efficient and effective measures to ensure it's safety also when they don't align.
  - dmichulke 10y ago
    Would there be a reason why GPS with 10m accuracy is OK but Galileo with 1m is not?
    - nickpsecurity 10y ago
      GPS has better than 10m accuracy in another operating mode. Only the military is allowed to use that one, though. Then they don't want Galileo being 1m accurate? Probably same military reasons.
drzaiusapelord 10y ago
This is actually untrue. The US didn't like that the EU was using bands close to GPS so if there was a conflict where the Russians or Chinese were using Galileo to target American troops, the US would have no choice but to shoot down or otherwise disable Galileo satellites by force. No one wants this, so the EU chose a different frequency that could be jammed without jamming GPS. Accuracy was never a concern. Galileo can't do better than a meter for many reasons, not the least of which is number of satellites, clock accuracy, and cost. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_(satellite_navigation)#Tension_with_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_(satellite_navigation)...
- madez 10y ago
  Then Europe should treat shooting down of Galileo satellites as an act of war and react as such. It's not Europes business to make it easy for the USA to wage war.
  - drzaiusapelord 10y ago
    Europe is part of NATO and has major incentives to cooperate with the US. In the scenario where the US would have to shoot down Galileo sats, would most likely be one where the US is protecting Europe from China or Russia as we're talking WWIII. I imagine this little story is little more than a tempest in a teapot designed to enrage Euro nationalists. The reality is that when you're in a shared defense agreement, your weapons systems, including nav systems, need a high level of cooperation. A frequency shift isn't the tragedy you're making it out to be.
    - madez 10y ago
      In the scenario you mentioned Europe could turn off Galileo if deemed necessary, no need for the USA to shoot it down. The solution taken just makes it easier for USA to wage war against Europes interests.
      - drzaiusapelord 10y ago

Klathmon 10y ago

What's the fear with more accuracy? From my (completely layman) perspective once you've got a meter or so of accuracy, you've got what you need for weapons. What's further accuracy get you that some nations are against everyone having?

nathancahill 10y ago
A similar thing happens with commercial imagery satellites. Companies are forced to downsample their high resolution govt-only images to 30cm for the general public.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- blackaspen 10y ago
  My understanding is that it's not exactly "by force" but rather a condition of funding. The U.S. Government is probably Digital Globe's largest customer.
  - blackguardx 10y ago
    No, it is by force. It is similar to ITAR regulations. If you break that rule, your management team is probably going to jail. It would be akin to spying for a foreign power. Source: I used to do some consulting for a satellite imagery company.
- maxerickson 10y ago
  That's slightly different though, better imagery makes it possible to resolve more features. With the improved positional accuracy it's a 2 meter circle vs a 1 meter circle. What tactics does a 1 meter circle enable that the 2 meter circle does not enable? Also, DigitalGlobe only has 30 cm capability: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WorldView-4 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WorldView-4 Who is downsampling (DigitalGlobe/GeoEye was downsampling earlier 40 cm imagery for Google, to 50cm)?
michaelt 10y ago
There's no fear about accuracy - the plan is that Galileo will charge for high precision services. Indeed, you can buy centimeter-precision GPS services right now for applications like surveying and precision farming [1] - those are small markets, of course; self-driving cars are the real prize. The objection from the US amounted to the fact an early Galileo design would have reduced their ability to degrade satellite navigation in war zones. Later the design was changed, so the US can jam Galileo - which avoids the US objection, but makes Galileo less useful as a backup. [1] http://www.trimble.com/Positioning-Services/Trimble-RTX.aspx http://www.trimble.com/Positioning-Services/Trimble-RTX.aspx

madez 10y ago

I'm very disappointed that the EU bowed to their demands. It is the second clear sign I know that Europe dances to the USA's pipe; the other one was the grounding of the bolivian presidents plane in 2013. I hope that Europe eventually stops giving in to demands by the USA. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evo_Morales_grounding_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evo_Morales_grounding_incident

trimbo 10y ago
Or maybe the European team simply agreed with the concern?
- madez 10y ago
  Now, that is a valid concern. So far the first I read. Maybe some countries in Europe also wanted to see Snowden catched.
  - dogma1138 10y ago
    You do understand that the security concerns of Europe and the US are mostly overlapping right?
    - madez 10y ago
      Exactly, mostly. I think Europe should have efficient and effective measures to ensure it's safety also when they don't align.
- dmichulke 10y ago
  Would there be a reason why GPS with 10m accuracy is OK but Galileo with 1m is not?
  - nickpsecurity 10y ago
    GPS has better than 10m accuracy in another operating mode. Only the military is allowed to use that one, though. Then they don't want Galileo being 1m accurate? Probably same military reasons.

drzaiusapelord 10y ago

This is actually untrue. The US didn't like that the EU was using bands close to GPS so if there was a conflict where the Russians or Chinese were using Galileo to target American troops, the US would have no choice but to shoot down or otherwise disable Galileo satellites by force. No one wants this, so the EU chose a different frequency that could be jammed without jamming GPS. Accuracy was never a concern. Galileo can't do better than a meter for many reasons, not the least of which is number of satellites, clock accuracy, and cost. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_(satellite_navigation)#Tension_with_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_(satellite_navigation)...

madez 10y ago
Then Europe should treat shooting down of Galileo satellites as an act of war and react as such. It's not Europes business to make it easy for the USA to wage war.
- drzaiusapelord 10y ago
  Europe is part of NATO and has major incentives to cooperate with the US. In the scenario where the US would have to shoot down Galileo sats, would most likely be one where the US is protecting Europe from China or Russia as we're talking WWIII. I imagine this little story is little more than a tempest in a teapot designed to enrage Euro nationalists. The reality is that when you're in a shared defense agreement, your weapons systems, including nav systems, need a high level of cooperation. A frequency shift isn't the tragedy you're making it out to be.
  - madez 10y ago
    In the scenario you mentioned Europe could turn off Galileo if deemed necessary, no need for the USA to shoot it down. The solution taken just makes it easier for USA to wage war against Europes interests.
    - drzaiusapelord 10y ago