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> A Java dev with 7 years experience and a Java dev with 12 years of experience are "utterly the same" in my book Most people will hire the 7, as he is general

> A Java dev with 7 years experience and a Java dev with 12 years of experience are "utterly the same" in my book Most people will hire the 7, as he is generally about 10-20k cheaper... (see ageism problems)

sokoloff 10y ago
Why would they be 10-20K cheaper, especially if that was 1 year of experience 7 vs. 12 times in a row? I don't think this is an ageism problem at all. (I'm 45 by the way, supposedly squarely in the crosshairs of ageism in our industry.) Ceteris paribus, I think we can all agree that someone with 2 years of industry experience is more valuable than a fresh college grad. Most would think that 4 years is more valuable than 2. Thus, it's appropriate that people in that stage of their career are getting promotions and raises in excess of inflation/CoLA increments, as this reflects a fair price for their increasing value. At some point, if that same person stops really learning, growing, and differentiating themselves, their value stops going up (except for modest inflationary raises). If that 12 year veteran is no better than the 7 year veteran but won't take a job offer at the same wage, then they damn well deserve to not get the job, IMO. That's not ageism; that's simple, proper, natural market forces. Companies pay programmers to create value, not to be old or young. If I can create the same value as someone older or younger, I should be paid the same as them, regardless of age or years of experience.
- brianwawok 10y ago
  Except you are missing how salary works. It is never "You create X value. We will pay you .5x" (Outside of very niche places like Trading). 99% of the world is "Oh you made X at your last job? We can pay you X + 10k. Hence the older dev tends to make slightly more salary than the younger dev, even if the skillset was similar. And by older, I mean years of coding not physical age. If a guy was a chef for 20 years and a programmer for 3, he is the same programmer age as a 3 year out of college guy.
  - sokoloff 10y ago
    I agree that many places work that way, particularly if they have no idea how much value a dev creates. I don't know if it's 99% or not; that seems high to me, and even at such places, if I go in with proof/truth that I made $500K at my last job, I'm not getting an offer for $510K as a dev...
    - brianwawok 10y ago
      500k will not lead to a 510k offer. If you aren't someone famous, likely true. But if you have two identical guys going for 2 spots.. one guy last made 120, one guy last made 160. I bet their offers are 130 and 170, despite their IDENTICAL skills. This is why the salary of your first few jobs after college matters so much. Screw it up by 10k and you can EASILY lose 200-300k of salary over your career.

sokoloff 10y ago

Why would they be 10-20K cheaper, especially if that was 1 year of experience 7 vs. 12 times in a row? I don't think this is an ageism problem at all. (I'm 45 by the way, supposedly squarely in the crosshairs of ageism in our industry.) Ceteris paribus, I think we can all agree that someone with 2 years of industry experience is more valuable than a fresh college grad. Most would think that 4 years is more valuable than 2. Thus, it's appropriate that people in that stage of their career are getting promotions and raises in excess of inflation/CoLA increments, as this reflects a fair price for their increasing value. At some point, if that same person stops really learning, growing, and differentiating themselves, their value stops going up (except for modest inflationary raises). If that 12 year veteran is no better than the 7 year veteran but won't take a job offer at the same wage, then they damn well deserve to not get the job, IMO. That's not ageism; that's simple, proper, natural market forces. Companies pay programmers to create value, not to be old or young. If I can create the same value as someone older or younger, I should be paid the same as them, regardless of age or years of experience.

brianwawok 10y ago
Except you are missing how salary works. It is never "You create X value. We will pay you .5x" (Outside of very niche places like Trading). 99% of the world is "Oh you made X at your last job? We can pay you X + 10k. Hence the older dev tends to make slightly more salary than the younger dev, even if the skillset was similar. And by older, I mean years of coding not physical age. If a guy was a chef for 20 years and a programmer for 3, he is the same programmer age as a 3 year out of college guy.
- sokoloff 10y ago
  I agree that many places work that way, particularly if they have no idea how much value a dev creates. I don't know if it's 99% or not; that seems high to me, and even at such places, if I go in with proof/truth that I made $500K at my last job, I'm not getting an offer for $510K as a dev...
  - brianwawok 10y ago
    500k will not lead to a 510k offer. If you aren't someone famous, likely true. But if you have two identical guys going for 2 spots.. one guy last made 120, one guy last made 160. I bet their offers are 130 and 170, despite their IDENTICAL skills. This is why the salary of your first few jobs after college matters so much. Screw it up by 10k and you can EASILY lose 200-300k of salary over your career.