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I am not on board with categorically downvoting incivility, even on that last bastion of civil discourse we call HN. While we may feel uncomfortable hearing fro

I am not on board with categorically downvoting incivility, even on that last bastion of civil discourse we call HN. While we may feel uncomfortable hearing from someone who is upset, it's hard to deny that we notice them more - and that can be very important for those whose voice isn't very loud in the community otherwise. To the empathetic, an uncivil outcry can serve as a stinging reminder that their behavior has deeply offended someone else. I'm reminded of an MLK Jr. quote about the tendency of moderates to oppose the loudness of minorities whose views aren't yet well-accepted. I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection. We should strive to be an orderly community, but we should also strive to be an accepting one.

grzm 10y ago
Thanks for the MLK quote! I agree with the spirit of it, and personally struggle to understand where the balance is between order and justice. though I think there's a meaningful distinction to be made between "set a timetable for another man's freedom" and trying to figure out what ways are effective in making change. I'm not encouraging anyone to wait. I'm encouraging people to do what's effective. MLK was also very good at figuring out effective methods of promoting change, and is well known for non-violent civil disobedience. He's also well known for his eloquence. I'm not a scholar of his speeches and writings, but I'm not aware of cases where he was uncivil in his language. Happy to be educated otherwise. And with respect to uncivil outcry, there may indeed be a place for it. If it's repeated to the point where it ends up being effectively ignored and dismissed, does it still serve the purpose of reminding people that there are those who are offended? I personally don't think so.
- etjossem 10y ago
  A downvote, whether it's because of tone or message, is a way to say "this comment has no place here." Enough of them concentrated on one message will censor it from everyone else's view. All I ask is that we be careful about using that tool, particularly against a "freedom from" position that has historically been given few venues. I believe trans people should have freedom from misgendering, because being in an environment in which you are constantly humiliated and disrespected can have negative psychological effects. As a white guy who doesn't suffer through this, I can afford to play it safe when I talk about it, because I am not directly impacted by how well my message is heard. There are also some people who can't afford to play it safe. They need to talk about this, even if it is emotional or tough for them. If anything, they deserve to be heard more than I do. I want to make HN a place where they feel like they have a seat at the table, so I don't mind it when they meet what they perceive as incivility with a fire of their own.
  - grzm 10y ago
    I understand where you're coming from. I likewise want people to feel like they can discuss issues that are important to them. And I can also understand why people often respond passionately and possibly uncivilly in response to what they perceive (and sometimes objectively is) incivility. That said, I don't agree with it. It's just not effective in the vast majority of cases, and I see the severe polarization in the US as partly due to this lack of civil, charitable discourse. Would you and I be able to have continued this discussion (which I feel is civil and constructive, and I thank you for that) if we weren't taking care with how we express ourselves? I personally doubt it. For my part, I haven't felt that I've gotten heated or needed to restrain myself or rephrase for tone (as opposed to clarity), which I most definitely have in other discussions on divisive issues (in this case the role of civility in discussion of contentious issues). I sincerely hope you feel similarly, even if you ultimately disagree with what I've said. Regarding downvoting: I believe it's off-topic here to discuss the proper use of downvoting. There's plenty of that to be found on HN already. In my comment above I'm describing the behavior I see: the positive as opposed to the normative. I do have opinions on the matter, but they're similarly off-topic. I'm not sure what else I have to add on the topic of civility and discussion. I often reference the Principle of Charity[0] and Rapoport's Rules[1] as I personally find them useful in guiding my approach to discussion. Thanks again for your thoughtful discussion. I appreciate it. [0]: http://philosophy.lander.edu/oriental/charity.html http://philosophy.lander.edu/oriental/charity.html [1]: https://www.brainpickings.org/2014/03/28/daniel-dennett-rapoport-rules-criticism/ https://www.brainpickings.org/2014/03/28/daniel-dennett-rapo...

grzm 10y ago

Thanks for the MLK quote! I agree with the spirit of it, and personally struggle to understand where the balance is between order and justice. though I think there's a meaningful distinction to be made between "set a timetable for another man's freedom" and trying to figure out what ways are effective in making change. I'm not encouraging anyone to wait. I'm encouraging people to do what's effective. MLK was also very good at figuring out effective methods of promoting change, and is well known for non-violent civil disobedience. He's also well known for his eloquence. I'm not a scholar of his speeches and writings, but I'm not aware of cases where he was uncivil in his language. Happy to be educated otherwise. And with respect to uncivil outcry, there may indeed be a place for it. If it's repeated to the point where it ends up being effectively ignored and dismissed, does it still serve the purpose of reminding people that there are those who are offended? I personally don't think so.

etjossem 10y ago
A downvote, whether it's because of tone or message, is a way to say "this comment has no place here." Enough of them concentrated on one message will censor it from everyone else's view. All I ask is that we be careful about using that tool, particularly against a "freedom from" position that has historically been given few venues. I believe trans people should have freedom from misgendering, because being in an environment in which you are constantly humiliated and disrespected can have negative psychological effects. As a white guy who doesn't suffer through this, I can afford to play it safe when I talk about it, because I am not directly impacted by how well my message is heard. There are also some people who can't afford to play it safe. They need to talk about this, even if it is emotional or tough for them. If anything, they deserve to be heard more than I do. I want to make HN a place where they feel like they have a seat at the table, so I don't mind it when they meet what they perceive as incivility with a fire of their own.
- grzm 10y ago
  I understand where you're coming from. I likewise want people to feel like they can discuss issues that are important to them. And I can also understand why people often respond passionately and possibly uncivilly in response to what they perceive (and sometimes objectively is) incivility. That said, I don't agree with it. It's just not effective in the vast majority of cases, and I see the severe polarization in the US as partly due to this lack of civil, charitable discourse. Would you and I be able to have continued this discussion (which I feel is civil and constructive, and I thank you for that) if we weren't taking care with how we express ourselves? I personally doubt it. For my part, I haven't felt that I've gotten heated or needed to restrain myself or rephrase for tone (as opposed to clarity), which I most definitely have in other discussions on divisive issues (in this case the role of civility in discussion of contentious issues). I sincerely hope you feel similarly, even if you ultimately disagree with what I've said. Regarding downvoting: I believe it's off-topic here to discuss the proper use of downvoting. There's plenty of that to be found on HN already. In my comment above I'm describing the behavior I see: the positive as opposed to the normative. I do have opinions on the matter, but they're similarly off-topic. I'm not sure what else I have to add on the topic of civility and discussion. I often reference the Principle of Charity[0] and Rapoport's Rules[1] as I personally find them useful in guiding my approach to discussion. Thanks again for your thoughtful discussion. I appreciate it. [0]: http://philosophy.lander.edu/oriental/charity.html http://philosophy.lander.edu/oriental/charity.html [1]: https://www.brainpickings.org/2014/03/28/daniel-dennett-rapoport-rules-criticism/ https://www.brainpickings.org/2014/03/28/daniel-dennett-rapo...