6 ms·

Manning is a woman, not a guy. It is fucking disgusting how many people here want to misgender her.

grzm 10y ago
This is an issue you (along with many others) are very passionate about. An earlier comment you made I think describes this particularly eloquently and civilly. She was always a woman; she just presented as a man for many years. The NYT presented the information quite well when they said, "Ms. Manning was still known as Bradley Manning when she deployed with her unit to Iraq in late 2009." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13422094 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13422094 You're also very aware that a lot of people are not on the same page with you. Some are trying to figure it out for themselves, some have made up their mind. I think it's commendable that they're willing to do so in a public forum and for the most part civilly, particularly on an issue that has been historically as divisive as this. Let's encourage this discussion in a constructive manner and leave strong, insulting language out of it, regardless of how strongly we may feel about the issue. I completely understand how frustrating it can be when you feel like you're constantly repeating yourself and no one's listening. It would be great if people could be convinced over the course of 30 minutes, but I doubt that's realistically going to happen.
- adrienne 10y ago
  It's not an "opinion" about which people can reasonably be on different pages in 2017. It's transphobic and disgusting. And of course i'm getting downvoted for speaking out about it, because this is, after all, Hacker News.
  - grzm 10y ago
    Please note I never claimed it was. I believe as you do that language is important. That includes choosing language I think will accomplish my goals, which is to encourage people to reflect and think about the issue. I don't think using language like "fucking disgusting" and "transphobic" are likely to convince the people you hope to reach to do anything other than get defensive and dig in. Do you? And Hacker News will downvote tone and civility, regardless of the opinion. It's very easy to see that as an attack when it's happening to you. I see the same behavior on all sides of issues. When I find myself getting particularly heated, I find it better to refrain from commenting at all, not because I'm afraid of getting downvoted, but because I know it's not going to lead to any useful discussion.
    - adrienne 10y ago
      If i cared about convincing techbros i would probably use different language, yes. As it is, i think this community has a whole lot of really horrible people in it who think they are Very Rational And Smart and can't be taught. And i'm a woman, so they're doubly not going to listen to me. So i don't bother wasting my energy, mostly. Like, i genuinely don't believe most of the people here are actually educable. I think they will continue to be sexist and transphobic forever and that trying to convince them to be otherwise is a bottomless sink of time and energy.
      - grzm 10y ago
        Yet you continue to post. In all honesty, why do so? This is not meant in any way as a criticism. You've expressed this opinion of the HN community many times, so I'm genuinely interested why you continue to do so.
        adrienne 10y ago
        Think of me as a particularly disapproving Greek chorus.
        grzm 10y ago
        As I pointed out in my initial comment, I personally value your comments when you're civil. I think they add to the overall discussion. I don't think anyone on Hacker News needs a "particularly disapproving Greek chorus" of any particular opinion. Less charitable people might argue it's indistinguishable from trolling. It's distracting and leads to bad faith and flamewar discussions, and is explicitly against community guidelines. I sincerely wish you the best and hope that you continue to engage constructively and positively, even when you disagree or believe people to be unreasonable. Best wishes.
        KirinDave 10y ago
        From what I've seen, you're the sort of person who "values" the input of marginalized opinion so long as you're firmly in control of the conversation and are allowed to shout them down at any time. Examine who and what you are defending here. You've desperate clung to this driftwood of a "rational" debate, which is of course a complete charade. What "constructive" and "positive" debate can be had here? I have prepared a nice play which sums up the transphobic part of this thread. Forgive me the formatting, HN is a bit difficult to coerce. Please do consider auditioning for the part modeled after your actions. C: "Hello. I am attempting to live my life as a woman. To live any other way is unbearable." HNA: "You are a man and a bad one at that!" HNB: "Your particular brand of mental illness must be painful." HNC: "The objective reality is that you have a penis therefore are a man." HND: "Can you even have a period? Everyone knows all women can have periods. HA!" HNE: "These snowflakes, we should round them all up." Someone Sane: "This is vile. This is totally wrong. You are fucking monsters." You: "Now now, watch your language." Someone Sane: "Really? My language." You: "One cannot hope to have a civil discourse with one so emotional and foulmouthed. How can you hope to debate your betters with such language? Tut tut." Someone Sane: "I wasn't planning on debating them. Their points are beneath contempt, unscientific, and dehumanizing." You: sighs smugly "That, my little snowflake, is the problem. They've already won by logic, all you bring to the table is curse words. Why can't you be more fair?" sips box wine "Now run along and play."
  - kjbflsudfb 10y ago
    I ask this seriously and not cynically: What are you trying to achieve with these comments? Are you hoping to educate people? Are you trying to scold people for not knowing better? The content of the article isn't about Manning's gender association, but your comments are only about that. I would suspect any downvotes are simply because it is off-topic..?
    - adrienne 10y ago
      Even if you assume my comments are pointless pedantry - since when has pointless pedantry been uncommon or unwelcome on Hacker News? It is wrong to misgender people. It is unacceptable. Why is it somehow more terrible to point that out than it is to do it in the first place?
      - kjbflsudfb 10y ago
        "Even if you assume my comments are pointless pedantry..." Where did I use those words? Responses like this make it hard for me to learn from the other person. Maybe you feel like we should all already know these things, but that simply is not reality. It is not always because the person is "transphobic", as you put it, but simply uneducated on a particular topic.
        adrienne 10y ago
        I feel like by 2017 if someone hasn't become aware of trans issues it's because they're deliberately staying ignorant. I mean, this stuff is all over the news. Transgender people are constantly getting murdered and beaten, and people are even trying to prevent them from peeing in public bathrooms all the time. There are so many good resources about trans people online, and i expect a bunch of Smart and Rational and Educated people (like HN commenters collectively think they are) to actually fucking educate themselves.
        akjainaj 10y ago
        No offence, but you really sound angered and I feel somehow responsible--different people have different political views about all issues (everything is politics, after all) and we have to live with that fact. You are not going to convince others by insulting them. Also, HN is not the place to try and convince anybody to think the way you do, because that leads to flamewars (if you have an opinion, you'll stick to it, no?), and guys here detest flamewars. Just my two cents, greetings.
  - flukus 10y ago
    > It's not an "opinion" about which people can reasonably be on different pages in 2017 So by what objective standard is Manning a man/woman? Her gender is just her opinion, so why can't others have different opinions?
Girlang 10y ago
That's your opinion. I'm a woman, with XX chromosomes, and I'm not so sure. Can "black" be "white" because someone says so?
wtbob 10y ago
> Manning is a woman, not a guy. No, no he's not. He has never had, nor will he ever have, a period. He will never worry about ovarian cancer. His medical prognosis will be most like that of an average man than that of an average woman for any particular issue. He's not experienced the fundamental biological issues which all women experience, and he never will, while he has experienced, and will continue to experience, the fundamental biological issues which all men experience (and if he has himself castrated, then he will experience those biological issues all adult-onset castrati experience). It's misgendering him to ignore those fundamental physical facts and pretend that he's a woman. As I've noted elsewhere, it might be kind to refer to him face-to-face as a woman in order to avoid distress. But there's no need for those of us talking about him, in a forum he is unlikely to encounter, to pretend that the facts are not what they are.
- akjainaj 10y ago
  Thank you, it's hard to find sanity lately about issues like this one.
angry_octet 10y ago
I would like to think that in ten years the overwhelming weight of opinion will be respectful of gender identity. At the moment that definitely isn't the case. The consistent use of quotes around pronouns, as in "'she'", and use of 'they', as if there is confusion, is a subtle but deliberate way to indicate that the author thinks gender identity is all a bit fake. Its puerile behaviour from people who should know better.

grzm 10y ago

This is an issue you (along with many others) are very passionate about. An earlier comment you made I think describes this particularly eloquently and civilly. She was always a woman; she just presented as a man for many years. The NYT presented the information quite well when they said, "Ms. Manning was still known as Bradley Manning when she deployed with her unit to Iraq in late 2009." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13422094 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13422094 You're also very aware that a lot of people are not on the same page with you. Some are trying to figure it out for themselves, some have made up their mind. I think it's commendable that they're willing to do so in a public forum and for the most part civilly, particularly on an issue that has been historically as divisive as this. Let's encourage this discussion in a constructive manner and leave strong, insulting language out of it, regardless of how strongly we may feel about the issue. I completely understand how frustrating it can be when you feel like you're constantly repeating yourself and no one's listening. It would be great if people could be convinced over the course of 30 minutes, but I doubt that's realistically going to happen.

adrienne 10y ago
It's not an "opinion" about which people can reasonably be on different pages in 2017. It's transphobic and disgusting. And of course i'm getting downvoted for speaking out about it, because this is, after all, Hacker News.
- grzm 10y ago
  Please note I never claimed it was. I believe as you do that language is important. That includes choosing language I think will accomplish my goals, which is to encourage people to reflect and think about the issue. I don't think using language like "fucking disgusting" and "transphobic" are likely to convince the people you hope to reach to do anything other than get defensive and dig in. Do you? And Hacker News will downvote tone and civility, regardless of the opinion. It's very easy to see that as an attack when it's happening to you. I see the same behavior on all sides of issues. When I find myself getting particularly heated, I find it better to refrain from commenting at all, not because I'm afraid of getting downvoted, but because I know it's not going to lead to any useful discussion.
  - adrienne 10y ago
    If i cared about convincing techbros i would probably use different language, yes. As it is, i think this community has a whole lot of really horrible people in it who think they are Very Rational And Smart and can't be taught. And i'm a woman, so they're doubly not going to listen to me. So i don't bother wasting my energy, mostly. Like, i genuinely don't believe most of the people here are actually educable. I think they will continue to be sexist and transphobic forever and that trying to convince them to be otherwise is a bottomless sink of time and energy.
    - grzm 10y ago
      Yet you continue to post. In all honesty, why do so? This is not meant in any way as a criticism. You've expressed this opinion of the HN community many times, so I'm genuinely interested why you continue to do so.
      - adrienne 10y ago
        Think of me as a particularly disapproving Greek chorus.
        grzm 10y ago
        As I pointed out in my initial comment, I personally value your comments when you're civil. I think they add to the overall discussion. I don't think anyone on Hacker News needs a "particularly disapproving Greek chorus" of any particular opinion. Less charitable people might argue it's indistinguishable from trolling. It's distracting and leads to bad faith and flamewar discussions, and is explicitly against community guidelines. I sincerely wish you the best and hope that you continue to engage constructively and positively, even when you disagree or believe people to be unreasonable. Best wishes.
        KirinDave 10y ago
        From what I've seen, you're the sort of person who "values" the input of marginalized opinion so long as you're firmly in control of the conversation and are allowed to shout them down at any time. Examine who and what you are defending here. You've desperate clung to this driftwood of a "rational" debate, which is of course a complete charade. What "constructive" and "positive" debate can be had here? I have prepared a nice play which sums up the transphobic part of this thread. Forgive me the formatting, HN is a bit difficult to coerce. Please do consider auditioning for the part modeled after your actions. C: "Hello. I am attempting to live my life as a woman. To live any other way is unbearable." HNA: "You are a man and a bad one at that!" HNB: "Your particular brand of mental illness must be painful." HNC: "The objective reality is that you have a penis therefore are a man." HND: "Can you even have a period? Everyone knows all women can have periods. HA!" HNE: "These snowflakes, we should round them all up." Someone Sane: "This is vile. This is totally wrong. You are fucking monsters." You: "Now now, watch your language." Someone Sane: "Really? My language." You: "One cannot hope to have a civil discourse with one so emotional and foulmouthed. How can you hope to debate your betters with such language? Tut tut." Someone Sane: "I wasn't planning on debating them. Their points are beneath contempt, unscientific, and dehumanizing." You: sighs smugly "That, my little snowflake, is the problem. They've already won by logic, all you bring to the table is curse words. Why can't you be more fair?" sips box wine "Now run along and play."
- kjbflsudfb 10y ago
  I ask this seriously and not cynically: What are you trying to achieve with these comments? Are you hoping to educate people? Are you trying to scold people for not knowing better? The content of the article isn't about Manning's gender association, but your comments are only about that. I would suspect any downvotes are simply because it is off-topic..?
  - adrienne 10y ago
    Even if you assume my comments are pointless pedantry - since when has pointless pedantry been uncommon or unwelcome on Hacker News? It is wrong to misgender people. It is unacceptable. Why is it somehow more terrible to point that out than it is to do it in the first place?
    - kjbflsudfb 10y ago
      "Even if you assume my comments are pointless pedantry..." Where did I use those words? Responses like this make it hard for me to learn from the other person. Maybe you feel like we should all already know these things, but that simply is not reality. It is not always because the person is "transphobic", as you put it, but simply uneducated on a particular topic.
      - adrienne 10y ago
        I feel like by 2017 if someone hasn't become aware of trans issues it's because they're deliberately staying ignorant. I mean, this stuff is all over the news. Transgender people are constantly getting murdered and beaten, and people are even trying to prevent them from peeing in public bathrooms all the time. There are so many good resources about trans people online, and i expect a bunch of Smart and Rational and Educated people (like HN commenters collectively think they are) to actually fucking educate themselves.
        akjainaj 10y ago
        No offence, but you really sound angered and I feel somehow responsible--different people have different political views about all issues (everything is politics, after all) and we have to live with that fact. You are not going to convince others by insulting them. Also, HN is not the place to try and convince anybody to think the way you do, because that leads to flamewars (if you have an opinion, you'll stick to it, no?), and guys here detest flamewars. Just my two cents, greetings.
- flukus 10y ago
  > It's not an "opinion" about which people can reasonably be on different pages in 2017 So by what objective standard is Manning a man/woman? Her gender is just her opinion, so why can't others have different opinions?

Girlang 10y ago

That's your opinion. I'm a woman, with XX chromosomes, and I'm not so sure. Can "black" be "white" because someone says so?

wtbob 10y ago

> Manning is a woman, not a guy. No, no he's not. He has never had, nor will he ever have, a period. He will never worry about ovarian cancer. His medical prognosis will be most like that of an average man than that of an average woman for any particular issue. He's not experienced the fundamental biological issues which all women experience, and he never will, while he has experienced, and will continue to experience, the fundamental biological issues which all men experience (and if he has himself castrated, then he will experience those biological issues all adult-onset castrati experience). It's misgendering him to ignore those fundamental physical facts and pretend that he's a woman. As I've noted elsewhere, it might be kind to refer to him face-to-face as a woman in order to avoid distress. But there's no need for those of us talking about him, in a forum he is unlikely to encounter, to pretend that the facts are not what they are.

akjainaj 10y ago
Thank you, it's hard to find sanity lately about issues like this one.

angry_octet 10y ago

I would like to think that in ten years the overwhelming weight of opinion will be respectful of gender identity. At the moment that definitely isn't the case. The consistent use of quotes around pronouns, as in "'she'", and use of 'they', as if there is confusion, is a subtle but deliberate way to indicate that the author thinks gender identity is all a bit fake. Its puerile behaviour from people who should know better.