4 ms·

Yes, but Ms. Manning's gender is neither indeterminate nor unknown. Ms. Manning is a woman, and she has publicly stated that her pronouns are she/her. This is n

Yes, but Ms. Manning's gender is neither indeterminate nor unknown. Ms. Manning is a woman, and she has publicly stated that her pronouns are she/her. This is not difficult information to find.

na85 10y ago
Guess what? Ms. Manning doesn't get to dictate how the English language works. "They" works just as well for her as it does for me or you. If Chelsea doesn't like it, well, she can take it up with the dictionary. A person can express a preference but their choice (oops, I used "they" again! be sure to downvote!) has no bearing on my choice of words.
- etjossem 10y ago
  > If Chelsea doesn't like it, well, she can take it up with the dictionary. On her behalf, let's call up Merriam-Webster. https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/singular-nonbinary-they https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/singular-nonbi... The only correct use of the singular-they is as "a pronoun of choice for someone who doesn’t identify as either male or female." You could use singular-they for "a person whose gender isn’t known or isn’t important in the context," but strictly speaking that would be grammatically incorrect. If - as you claim - you're eager to abide by prescriptive conventions of the English language, feel free to start using "she" when referring to Chelsea Manning.
  - adrienne 10y ago
    Dictionaries are reflections of usage rather than arbiters of it -- but yes, generally speaking, singular "they" is for use in situations where people's gender is ambiguous or unknown. And in particular, calling trans people "they" is often a tactic that is used to implicitly deny that they are "really" their gender.
    - etjossem 10y ago
      I'm well aware, which is why it's totally inappropriate usage here. Chelsea Manning's gender and pronoun are arguably among the most well-known in the world, since she has very publicly made them explicit! The only reason anyone in this situation is using "they" is because of a desire to avoid saying the correct pronoun "she."
      - adrienne 10y ago
        Precisely. Except i don't think it's a "mistake".
        etjossem 10y ago
        I just took that part out, after thinking about it for a little bit. Our default pattern of speech is to choose "he" or "she" if we know one of these pronouns is correct, so the use of singular-they is nearly always deliberate.
        adrienne 10y ago
        Yeah, exactly. In my observation, even when people are trying to use "they" - like if they're telling someone a story where they're deliberately obfuscating someone's gender - folks often slip up midway through.
        etjossem 10y ago
        The volume of downvotes and hate comments you are getting for standing up on this issue is disturbing. I hope some of those commenters eventually reconsider whether the acceptance of disrespectful pronouns on HN is truly the cause they want to be known for.
        grzm 10y ago
        I honestly believe the majority of the downvotes are because of tone, not position. As for hate comments in response to any of 'adrienne's in this thread, I see three that are very uncivil and have been flagged dead (and won't appear unless you have showdead on). Another is arguably uncivil and has also received a net negative votes. If you have a separate tally, please point it out. That's not to say all of the downvotes are purely for tone. There are people who will downvote out of spite or disagreement. One issue I do think a majority of HN members agree on is the value of civil, substantive discussion, regardless of topic. As a result, HN members do overwhelmingly downvote incivility, including incivility directed at 'adrienne's comments. Please note that multiple commenters have mentioned exactly this. If you contend that they're being insincere in doing so, you of course are free to do so, but it's unlikely that you're going to be able to constructively engage with them from a position of bad faith. I want people to be able to discuss these types of things. Regardless of what people think should be, it remains a fact that not everyone agrees on a whole host of issues. Changing one's mind is hard; changing someone else's even harder. If I can't approach the discussion with the perspective that there's hope of some sort of understanding (if not yet agreement), I'll refrain from saying anything. It's not useful—and very likely counterproductive—to do otherwise.

Yes, but Ms. Manning's gender is neither indeterminate nor unknown. Ms. Manning is a woman, and she has publicly stated that her pronouns are she/her. This is not difficult information to find.

na85 10y ago

Guess what? Ms. Manning doesn't get to dictate how the English language works. "They" works just as well for her as it does for me or you. If Chelsea doesn't like it, well, she can take it up with the dictionary. A person can express a preference but their choice (oops, I used "they" again! be sure to downvote!) has no bearing on my choice of words.

etjossem 10y ago
> If Chelsea doesn't like it, well, she can take it up with the dictionary. On her behalf, let's call up Merriam-Webster. https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/singular-nonbinary-they https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/singular-nonbi... The only correct use of the singular-they is as "a pronoun of choice for someone who doesn’t identify as either male or female." You could use singular-they for "a person whose gender isn’t known or isn’t important in the context," but strictly speaking that would be grammatically incorrect. If - as you claim - you're eager to abide by prescriptive conventions of the English language, feel free to start using "she" when referring to Chelsea Manning.
- adrienne 10y ago
  Dictionaries are reflections of usage rather than arbiters of it -- but yes, generally speaking, singular "they" is for use in situations where people's gender is ambiguous or unknown. And in particular, calling trans people "they" is often a tactic that is used to implicitly deny that they are "really" their gender.
  - etjossem 10y ago
    I'm well aware, which is why it's totally inappropriate usage here. Chelsea Manning's gender and pronoun are arguably among the most well-known in the world, since she has very publicly made them explicit! The only reason anyone in this situation is using "they" is because of a desire to avoid saying the correct pronoun "she."
    - adrienne 10y ago
      Precisely. Except i don't think it's a "mistake".
      - etjossem 10y ago
        I just took that part out, after thinking about it for a little bit. Our default pattern of speech is to choose "he" or "she" if we know one of these pronouns is correct, so the use of singular-they is nearly always deliberate.
        adrienne 10y ago
        Yeah, exactly. In my observation, even when people are trying to use "they" - like if they're telling someone a story where they're deliberately obfuscating someone's gender - folks often slip up midway through.
        etjossem 10y ago
        The volume of downvotes and hate comments you are getting for standing up on this issue is disturbing. I hope some of those commenters eventually reconsider whether the acceptance of disrespectful pronouns on HN is truly the cause they want to be known for.
        grzm 10y ago
        I honestly believe the majority of the downvotes are because of tone, not position. As for hate comments in response to any of 'adrienne's in this thread, I see three that are very uncivil and have been flagged dead (and won't appear unless you have showdead on). Another is arguably uncivil and has also received a net negative votes. If you have a separate tally, please point it out. That's not to say all of the downvotes are purely for tone. There are people who will downvote out of spite or disagreement. One issue I do think a majority of HN members agree on is the value of civil, substantive discussion, regardless of topic. As a result, HN members do overwhelmingly downvote incivility, including incivility directed at 'adrienne's comments. Please note that multiple commenters have mentioned exactly this. If you contend that they're being insincere in doing so, you of course are free to do so, but it's unlikely that you're going to be able to constructively engage with them from a position of bad faith. I want people to be able to discuss these types of things. Regardless of what people think should be, it remains a fact that not everyone agrees on a whole host of issues. Changing one's mind is hard; changing someone else's even harder. If I can't approach the discussion with the perspective that there's hope of some sort of understanding (if not yet agreement), I'll refrain from saying anything. It's not useful—and very likely counterproductive—to do otherwise.