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Commuting Manning's sentence without pardoning Snowden feels like politics to me. Manning's actions embarrassed the Bush administration so Obama will commute.

Commuting Manning's sentence without pardoning Snowden feels like politics to me. Manning's actions embarrassed the Bush administration so Obama will commute. Snowden's actions embarrassed the Obama administration so Obama won't pardon.

arbitrage 10y ago
Chelsea Manning stood trial. Edward Snowden did not.
- LordKano 10y ago
  Standing trial isn't a prerequisite for a pardon. Nixon never stood trial either.
  - saalweachter 10y ago
    It is not a prerequisite for a pardon, but it does serve the government's interests. Pre-emptively pardoning Snowden before he spends a day in prison sends the signal that the government isn't going to punish people for leaking, so go right ahead. Commuting Manning's sentence after seven years still leaves a pretty harsh warning for future leakers (is leaking that information worth seven years of your life?) while showing a degree of mercy to the individual (I mean, not the degree of mercy that commuting after 2 or 3 or 6 years would be...). Regardless of what you think Obama's secret inner beliefs and motivations are, I think it is reasonable to assume that as Commander in Chief and President of the United States he wants the people he entrusts with secrets to keep keeping them.
- noobermin 10y ago
  This has been discussed before. A President can pardon people for crimes they may be charged with in the future.
  - ceejayoz 10y ago
    Yes, but politically, "we dropped her sentence to seven years in jail" is more tenable than "we pardoned someone who never stood trial nor served a day in jail".
    - noobermin 10y ago
      Valid point. The possibility is real, but the difficulty you highlighted may make it less likely. Not that there is no precedent of course (Nixon).
    - randcraw 10y ago
      So don't pardon Snowden. Commute the charges against him. Like 97% of the cases that go to prosecution in this country, let him plea to a lesser crime and serve a 10 year sentence, minus time served in Russia.
      - ptaipale 10y ago
        Edit: Sorry, this was rubbish, I was thinking of Assange not Snowden. -- Note that charges (technically, a European Arrest Warrant in order to get him for questioning) against Snowden have not been made by the U.S. but by Sweden, for a suspected rape. So Obama definitely cannot commute them in any way. There is no extradition request to the U.S., so when fighting an extradition to U.S., Snowden is beating a straw man.
        DarqWebster 10y ago
        That's Julian Assange, not Edward Snowden.
        ptaipale 10y ago
        Sorry. Yes of course. Thanks.
      - dragonwriter 10y ago
notahacker 10y ago
There's also the small matter of Snowden currently being holed up in Russia, even if it probably wasn't his intended destination and he hasn't actually provided them with any useful information.
amyjess 10y ago
Manning was also being mistreated in prison, and that mistreatment would be very likely to get worse under a Trump administration. If Clinton won, a commutation would have been much less likely. It's worth repeating that while Obama commuted her sentence, he didn't pardon her. What he did was say "she's been punished enough", and it's entirely consistent to say that Manning has been punished enough but Snowden hasn't.
barneygumble742 10y ago
Obama has said that the two cases are different in that Manning has gone through the legal system, sentenced, and serving time, whereas Snowden is in a country that doesn't have an extradition treaty with the US and hasn't been tried under the US legal system.
- uxp 10y ago
  Specifically, one cannot be pardoned or have a sentence commuted of a crime one has not been convicted of. Snowden has not been convicted nor even tried for any crime. It's impossible for Obama to do anything about his situation.
  - CoryG89 10y ago
    This is not true. The courts found that a president can pardon a supposed crime before charges have even been filed, as well as any time before or after trial/conviction. This was the case with Ford's pardoning of Nixon, as well as Carter's pardoning of all those who avoided the draft during the Vietnam war.
    - i_don_t_know 10y ago
      That's not quite true either. According to https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/236/79/case.html https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/236/79/case.html "There are substantial differences between legislative immunity and a pardon; the latter carries an imputation of guilt and acceptance of a confession of it,[..]" You can only be pardoned if you have committed a crime. You have to either confess or admit your crime, or be tried, or at least be charged with a crime. Nixon confessed and admitted that he was guilty. We wasn't tried, maybe not even charged, but he admitted wrongdoing. As far as I know, Snowden has not admitted that he's guilty of a crime, he hasn't been tried, and he hasn't been charged. So from a legal point of view, he hasn't committed any crime and cannot be pardoned.
      - LordKano 10y ago
        Nixon confessed and admitted that he was guilty. [Citation Needed] I have never seen or even heard of any such confession from Nixon.
iaw 10y ago
I disagree. Manning's intent and actions are far short of those of Snowden. Snowden leaked information on valid espionage programs and possibly gave Russia the keys to the castle when he fled the country. I used to think Snowden deserved a pardon, and had it only been about the warrantless wiretapping I would still feel that way, but he leaked a number of things that damaged US relations in ways that have been highly beneficial to Russia. I think Snowden is both a patriot and a traitor for what he did.
- ryanlol 10y ago
  >possibly gave Russia the keys to the castle when he fled the country Might as well claim that he possibly coordinated the 9/11 attacks. It's also possible that he's secretly really old and shot Kennedy. There hasn't been a shred of evidence presented supporting these claims, and if you're going to make the claim you should back it up somehow.
  - iaw 10y ago
    For one, I don't appreciate your reductio ad absurdum[1] approach to discussion. Snowden would also have to be "secretly really old" to coordinate the 9/11 attacks and even then the claim is patently absurd. Snowden had a cache of encrypted intelligence data. Intelligence agencies are fully capable of cracking encryption when properly motivated (in some cases they've backdoored them preemptively). Ewen MacAskill, living in Europe and possessing the cache, would make a prime target for Russian intelligence. There is no proof that the Russians have his cache, but it's asinine to think that they don't given their overall espionage efforts. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum
    - ionised 10y ago
      He handed off his entire cache of documents to journalists while he was in Hong Kong and before he reached Russia. He also didn't read every single one, the journalists were responsible for combing through most of the data to determine what to release and what to redact. So knowing those two things, you can't credibly claim he handed Russia anything. Whatever Russia has, they obtained from the newspapers just like the rest of us.

arbitrage 10y ago

Chelsea Manning stood trial. Edward Snowden did not.

LordKano 10y ago
Standing trial isn't a prerequisite for a pardon. Nixon never stood trial either.
- saalweachter 10y ago
  It is not a prerequisite for a pardon, but it does serve the government's interests. Pre-emptively pardoning Snowden before he spends a day in prison sends the signal that the government isn't going to punish people for leaking, so go right ahead. Commuting Manning's sentence after seven years still leaves a pretty harsh warning for future leakers (is leaking that information worth seven years of your life?) while showing a degree of mercy to the individual (I mean, not the degree of mercy that commuting after 2 or 3 or 6 years would be...). Regardless of what you think Obama's secret inner beliefs and motivations are, I think it is reasonable to assume that as Commander in Chief and President of the United States he wants the people he entrusts with secrets to keep keeping them.
noobermin 10y ago
This has been discussed before. A President can pardon people for crimes they may be charged with in the future.
- ceejayoz 10y ago
  Yes, but politically, "we dropped her sentence to seven years in jail" is more tenable than "we pardoned someone who never stood trial nor served a day in jail".
  - noobermin 10y ago
    Valid point. The possibility is real, but the difficulty you highlighted may make it less likely. Not that there is no precedent of course (Nixon).
  - randcraw 10y ago
    So don't pardon Snowden. Commute the charges against him. Like 97% of the cases that go to prosecution in this country, let him plea to a lesser crime and serve a 10 year sentence, minus time served in Russia.
    - ptaipale 10y ago
      Edit: Sorry, this was rubbish, I was thinking of Assange not Snowden. -- Note that charges (technically, a European Arrest Warrant in order to get him for questioning) against Snowden have not been made by the U.S. but by Sweden, for a suspected rape. So Obama definitely cannot commute them in any way. There is no extradition request to the U.S., so when fighting an extradition to U.S., Snowden is beating a straw man.
      - DarqWebster 10y ago
        That's Julian Assange, not Edward Snowden.
        ptaipale 10y ago
        Sorry. Yes of course. Thanks.
    - dragonwriter 10y ago

notahacker 10y ago

There's also the small matter of Snowden currently being holed up in Russia, even if it probably wasn't his intended destination and he hasn't actually provided them with any useful information.

amyjess 10y ago

Manning was also being mistreated in prison, and that mistreatment would be very likely to get worse under a Trump administration. If Clinton won, a commutation would have been much less likely. It's worth repeating that while Obama commuted her sentence, he didn't pardon her. What he did was say "she's been punished enough", and it's entirely consistent to say that Manning has been punished enough but Snowden hasn't.

barneygumble742 10y ago

Obama has said that the two cases are different in that Manning has gone through the legal system, sentenced, and serving time, whereas Snowden is in a country that doesn't have an extradition treaty with the US and hasn't been tried under the US legal system.

uxp 10y ago
Specifically, one cannot be pardoned or have a sentence commuted of a crime one has not been convicted of. Snowden has not been convicted nor even tried for any crime. It's impossible for Obama to do anything about his situation.
- CoryG89 10y ago
  This is not true. The courts found that a president can pardon a supposed crime before charges have even been filed, as well as any time before or after trial/conviction. This was the case with Ford's pardoning of Nixon, as well as Carter's pardoning of all those who avoided the draft during the Vietnam war.
  - i_don_t_know 10y ago
    That's not quite true either. According to https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/236/79/case.html https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/236/79/case.html "There are substantial differences between legislative immunity and a pardon; the latter carries an imputation of guilt and acceptance of a confession of it,[..]" You can only be pardoned if you have committed a crime. You have to either confess or admit your crime, or be tried, or at least be charged with a crime. Nixon confessed and admitted that he was guilty. We wasn't tried, maybe not even charged, but he admitted wrongdoing. As far as I know, Snowden has not admitted that he's guilty of a crime, he hasn't been tried, and he hasn't been charged. So from a legal point of view, he hasn't committed any crime and cannot be pardoned.
    - LordKano 10y ago
      Nixon confessed and admitted that he was guilty. [Citation Needed] I have never seen or even heard of any such confession from Nixon.

iaw 10y ago

I disagree. Manning's intent and actions are far short of those of Snowden. Snowden leaked information on valid espionage programs and possibly gave Russia the keys to the castle when he fled the country. I used to think Snowden deserved a pardon, and had it only been about the warrantless wiretapping I would still feel that way, but he leaked a number of things that damaged US relations in ways that have been highly beneficial to Russia. I think Snowden is both a patriot and a traitor for what he did.

ryanlol 10y ago
>possibly gave Russia the keys to the castle when he fled the country Might as well claim that he possibly coordinated the 9/11 attacks. It's also possible that he's secretly really old and shot Kennedy. There hasn't been a shred of evidence presented supporting these claims, and if you're going to make the claim you should back it up somehow.
- iaw 10y ago
  For one, I don't appreciate your reductio ad absurdum[1] approach to discussion. Snowden would also have to be "secretly really old" to coordinate the 9/11 attacks and even then the claim is patently absurd. Snowden had a cache of encrypted intelligence data. Intelligence agencies are fully capable of cracking encryption when properly motivated (in some cases they've backdoored them preemptively). Ewen MacAskill, living in Europe and possessing the cache, would make a prime target for Russian intelligence. There is no proof that the Russians have his cache, but it's asinine to think that they don't given their overall espionage efforts. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum
  - ionised 10y ago
    He handed off his entire cache of documents to journalists while he was in Hong Kong and before he reached Russia. He also didn't read every single one, the journalists were responsible for combing through most of the data to determine what to release and what to redact. So knowing those two things, you can't credibly claim he handed Russia anything. Whatever Russia has, they obtained from the newspapers just like the rest of us.