4 ms·

This makes me wonder more at the pro-Chinese position of a lot of western media, particularly the New York Times. Its fairly telling that Taiwan is most often d

This makes me wonder more at the pro-Chinese position of a lot of western media, particularly the New York Times. Its fairly telling that Taiwan is most often described as a "renegade province" as opposed to a "peaceful high-income democracy", for example. Having talked to a lot of English speaking, wealthy, educated, overseas Chinese people I am always disturbed at how many of them take communist party positions, despite being able to google "Tiananmen Square". More disturbing when they weren't even born in China.

scott_s 10y ago
I do not get the same impression of "renegade province" when western media talks about Taiwan. I usually get the impression that they're talking about a normal Asian democracy, and then they need to remind the reader about the truly bizarre relationship they have with China. Can you share some examples which demonstrate what you mean?
mturmon 10y ago
Googling: [site:nytimes.com] [renegade] [province] turns up only things like: "Beijing has maintained that Taiwan is a renegade province..." which is perfectly factual. I do agree with your larger point that a lot of stories in Western media are uncritical of the shortcomings and risks of the Chinese political system.
- paradite 10y ago
  That's interesting. Can you recommend me some pro-China Western media? I am having trouble finding one.
  - mturmon 10y ago
    I should be more precise. I'm trying to say that much Western writing is not critical of the decisions the Chinese political system has made about how society is organized there, despite its costs for the country. (E.g., the fast building of roads, trains, and infrastructure; the responsiveness of its electronics industry -- these things have costs for the people of China, but their benefits are very unequally distributed.) I didn't mean to suggest that there is widespread Western cheerleading for China's political system, especially recently as Xi Jinpeng has consolidated power. What I was trying to capture is Western willingness to overlook the costs.
    - paradite 10y ago
      On the contrary, I keep getting the sort of news that you are missing, on my daily dose of social media. Just yesterday, I got this: http://www.economist.com/news/china/21714383-and-theres-lot-more-come-it-waste-money-china-has-built-worlds-largest http://www.economist.com/news/china/21714383-and-theres-lot-... And plenty more critical of govt decisions (ghost city, pollution, food safety) from this particular Facebook page which is quite popular for news in China: https://www.facebook.com/shanghaiist/ https://www.facebook.com/shanghaiist/
- lacampbell 10y ago
  Find an article about Kosovo. It's never referred to as a renegade province. They will simply state that Serbia doesn't recognise its independence. The position that is at odds with the facts on the ground is never given credibility.
paradite 10y ago
> This makes me wonder more at the pro-Chinese position of a lot of western media, particularly the New York Times. Its fairly telling that Taiwan is most often described as a "renegade province" as opposed to a "peaceful high-income democracy", for example. The original article is usually something like this "China considers Taiwan to be a renegade province, while the self-governing island Ms. Tsai leads traces its roots to the formation of the Republic of China in 1911 that overthrew the last Chinese dynasty, only to lose the Chinese civil war to the Communists in 1949." https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/11/world/asia/taiwan-tsai-china-national-day.html?_r=0 https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/11/world/asia/taiwan-tsai-ch... This is pretty standard description covering both side that I see in various news media (BBC usually calls it break-away province). > Having talked to a lot of English speaking, wealthy, educated, overseas Chinese people I am always disturbed at how many of them take communist party positions, despite being able to google "Tiananmen Square". More disturbing when they weren't even born in China. That's an entirely different issue all together. I think part of the reason is that they (myself included) are sick of seeing all the negative coverage of China 24/7 so they are just trying to balance things out. I myself recently did this on Hacker News: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13398849 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13398849 Also I read from some research that this is quite a common phenomenon among overseas Chinese to defend China because they boost their national pride and at the same time have nothing to lose anyway since they are not living in China.
- lacampbell 10y ago
  The original article is usually something like this "China considers Taiwan to be a renegade province, while the self-governing island Ms. Tsai leads traces its roots to the formation of the Republic of China in 1911 that overthrew the last Chinese dynasty, only to lose the Chinese civil war to the Communists in 1949." No mention of the dramatically different standards of living (Taiwan has a higher PPP per capita than any PRC province, including Tianjin). No mention of the fact that the ROC declared the civil war over in the 1991. There is one aggressor and agitator here. That's an entirely different issue all together. I think part of the reason is that they (myself included) are sick of seeing all the negative coverage of China 24/7 so they are just trying to balance things out. I myself recently did this on Hacker News: Might I suggest voting with your feet and repatriating yourself back to the motherland? Wealthy chinese are often upset at hearing criticism of a communist dictatorship with an atrocious human rights record - but they don't want to live there themselves if they can avoid it. Clearly the benefits of western civilisation are wasted on them. They can go back to the unfairly slandered land they love, and the rest of us might be able to afford a house in our own country again.
throw2016 10y ago
I don't know. There are many here who continue to take a pro-government pro-surveillance position inspite of the Snowden revelations. Many in the country and the mainstream media seem to think of him as a 'traitor'. That would seem to be equally disturbing, if not more?

scott_s 10y ago

I do not get the same impression of "renegade province" when western media talks about Taiwan. I usually get the impression that they're talking about a normal Asian democracy, and then they need to remind the reader about the truly bizarre relationship they have with China. Can you share some examples which demonstrate what you mean?

mturmon 10y ago

Googling: [site:nytimes.com] [renegade] [province] turns up only things like: "Beijing has maintained that Taiwan is a renegade province..." which is perfectly factual. I do agree with your larger point that a lot of stories in Western media are uncritical of the shortcomings and risks of the Chinese political system.

paradite 10y ago
That's interesting. Can you recommend me some pro-China Western media? I am having trouble finding one.
- mturmon 10y ago
  I should be more precise. I'm trying to say that much Western writing is not critical of the decisions the Chinese political system has made about how society is organized there, despite its costs for the country. (E.g., the fast building of roads, trains, and infrastructure; the responsiveness of its electronics industry -- these things have costs for the people of China, but their benefits are very unequally distributed.) I didn't mean to suggest that there is widespread Western cheerleading for China's political system, especially recently as Xi Jinpeng has consolidated power. What I was trying to capture is Western willingness to overlook the costs.
  - paradite 10y ago
    On the contrary, I keep getting the sort of news that you are missing, on my daily dose of social media. Just yesterday, I got this: http://www.economist.com/news/china/21714383-and-theres-lot-more-come-it-waste-money-china-has-built-worlds-largest http://www.economist.com/news/china/21714383-and-theres-lot-... And plenty more critical of govt decisions (ghost city, pollution, food safety) from this particular Facebook page which is quite popular for news in China: https://www.facebook.com/shanghaiist/ https://www.facebook.com/shanghaiist/
lacampbell 10y ago
Find an article about Kosovo. It's never referred to as a renegade province. They will simply state that Serbia doesn't recognise its independence. The position that is at odds with the facts on the ground is never given credibility.

paradite 10y ago

> This makes me wonder more at the pro-Chinese position of a lot of western media, particularly the New York Times. Its fairly telling that Taiwan is most often described as a "renegade province" as opposed to a "peaceful high-income democracy", for example. The original article is usually something like this "China considers Taiwan to be a renegade province, while the self-governing island Ms. Tsai leads traces its roots to the formation of the Republic of China in 1911 that overthrew the last Chinese dynasty, only to lose the Chinese civil war to the Communists in 1949." https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/11/world/asia/taiwan-tsai-china-national-day.html?_r=0 https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/11/world/asia/taiwan-tsai-ch... This is pretty standard description covering both side that I see in various news media (BBC usually calls it break-away province). > Having talked to a lot of English speaking, wealthy, educated, overseas Chinese people I am always disturbed at how many of them take communist party positions, despite being able to google "Tiananmen Square". More disturbing when they weren't even born in China. That's an entirely different issue all together. I think part of the reason is that they (myself included) are sick of seeing all the negative coverage of China 24/7 so they are just trying to balance things out. I myself recently did this on Hacker News: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13398849 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13398849 Also I read from some research that this is quite a common phenomenon among overseas Chinese to defend China because they boost their national pride and at the same time have nothing to lose anyway since they are not living in China.

lacampbell 10y ago
The original article is usually something like this "China considers Taiwan to be a renegade province, while the self-governing island Ms. Tsai leads traces its roots to the formation of the Republic of China in 1911 that overthrew the last Chinese dynasty, only to lose the Chinese civil war to the Communists in 1949." No mention of the dramatically different standards of living (Taiwan has a higher PPP per capita than any PRC province, including Tianjin). No mention of the fact that the ROC declared the civil war over in the 1991. There is one aggressor and agitator here. That's an entirely different issue all together. I think part of the reason is that they (myself included) are sick of seeing all the negative coverage of China 24/7 so they are just trying to balance things out. I myself recently did this on Hacker News: Might I suggest voting with your feet and repatriating yourself back to the motherland? Wealthy chinese are often upset at hearing criticism of a communist dictatorship with an atrocious human rights record - but they don't want to live there themselves if they can avoid it. Clearly the benefits of western civilisation are wasted on them. They can go back to the unfairly slandered land they love, and the rest of us might be able to afford a house in our own country again.

throw2016 10y ago

I don't know. There are many here who continue to take a pro-government pro-surveillance position inspite of the Snowden revelations. Many in the country and the mainstream media seem to think of him as a 'traitor'. That would seem to be equally disturbing, if not more?