9 ms·

"And then, some months later, Pixar rewrote the film from almost the ground up, and we made ToyStory2 again" So that effort to recreate it (not to mention prod

by smcl 10y ago

"And then, some months later, Pixar rewrote the film from almost the ground up, and we made ToyStory2 again" So that effort to recreate it (not to mention produce it in the first place) was pretty much all for naught? That must have been soul destroying

dijit 10y ago
I disagree wholeheartedly, they had a rare chance to rebuild using their acquired knowledge with none of the debt or cruft. "We have to keep this scene even though it's not quite perfect because otherwise it's a waste of money". Maybe this is a bad example actually, movie industry is something you launch and market and leave. But the best architectures I've seen have been demolished, destroyed and rebuilt from the ground up for their purpose. Same with code.
- integricho 10y ago
  And I'm also pretty sure they reworked their backup and validation tools as well.
- jnbiche 10y ago
  > But the best architectures I've seen have been demolished, destroyed and rebuilt from the ground up for their purpose. This can also be a destructive siren call: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-never-do-part-i/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-... But I think it's not absolute. Sometimes rewrites are imperative.
  - esquevin 10y ago
    In the case of toy story 2, I think the analogy would be that they ditched the product they were working on to create a different one. Thus making joel's point non relevant there
    - olavk 10y ago
      It wasn't a new product, they kept a lot of the assets (notably the characters and the universe) but rewrote the script extensively and had to scrap a lot of animation. I don't think an analogy to software rewrite works very well, the domains are so different. For example Joel makes the point that code have a lot of embedded information which you have to rediscover if you rewrite from scratch. This introduces a huge risk and uncertainty. If you rewrite a movie script halfway during production you have to scrap a lot of work but you don't really loose knowledge, so the risk is more manageable.
- abpavel 10y ago
  Same with government.
  - K0SM0S 10y ago
    Indeed, about every couple century in history we come up with some new form of government. It's only ever so incremental (hence why 'revolutions' are few and major in scope), and often has to do with adapting to new conditions (technological and social change mostly).
- smcl 10y ago
  Right, but I'm thinking from the perspective of someone who's been working on something for ages, gone through the stress of nearly losing it, then miraculously recovering it ... only to have found that a lot of their work was ditched. You're right that it probably ended up better, and sister comments are right in that it wasn't ALL for naught ... but can you imagine the moment you found out it was being reworked?
  - huxley 10y ago
    No need to imagine. It's not just during disasters like the Pixar case. Creative collaborative ventures like films and animation are filled with months of effort being deleted with a few quick keystrokes. Back when I was still in the film/video industry, it happened often, you kinda get accustomed to the ephemeral nature and you try not to get too attached to your work. Not always successfully but you try.
mabbo 10y ago
> all for naught? I bet you they were suddenly industry experts in source control and data backups.
- Klathmon 10y ago
  I made a mistake like this once, I feel most that are really dogmatic about backups have something like this. A long time ago I had a hard drive fail that had a bitcoin wallet with about 10 bitcoins in it. At the time it was worth a hundred USD or so. I tried to fix it myself, ended up failing and throwing the drive out. Right after that bitcoin started its meteoric climb. Every now and then I check the prices, then I go check that my backups are running, that my restores work, that my offsite backup is setup correctly, that every single one of my devices is backed up. It was a $9,000 life lesson (as of right now...)
  - rebuilder 10y ago
    Having lost quite some Bitcoins myself to different errors, IMO it was a hundred USD lesson. You could have replaced them but chose not to. The value therefore was whatever they would have netted you at the time. Worrying about what could have been will just drive you nuts.
    - Klathmon 10y ago
      I know, I'm not actually as broken up about it as I make it sound sometimes. It was a mistake, and it could "technically" cost me 10 grand, so it's a nice number to remember when I think about the time I'm spending setting up and testing my backups. (And it's a fantastic story to tell others which can often get them to start using a backup system) In the end, it may end up being net positive in my life when I save something huge later.
  - h1d 10y ago
    Caring to take good backups and the knowledge/skill of doing so is well worth more than $9K in the long run. Losing months of work is a mental killer. (What's worse is losing 100+ BTC to Gox. :p) I have not lost anything really important but I cannot live without at least 3 geographically separated backups of generations of backups for something I don't want to lose.
dahart 10y ago
A large percentage of files in a CG production are not shot specific, so no, the recovery work was definitely not wasted. There are sets, lighting setups, props, layouts, models, textures, shaders, character rigs, procedural and effects systems, etc., etc. A few of those things might have to be redone, but when those things are set up and the script changes, the main bulk of the work is cameras and character animation, and then re-rendering.
stpe 10y ago
In the comments, Oren addressed exactly that particular question: "We didn't scrap the models, but yes, we scrapped almost all the animation and almost all the layout and all the lighting. And it was worth it. Changing the script saved the film, which in turn allowed Buzz and Woody to carry on for future generation (see ToyStory3 for how awesome that universe continues to be - well done to everyone who worked on the lastest installment!) and, in some ways, set a major cornerstone in the culture of Pixar. You may have heard John or Steve or Ed mention "Quality is a good business model" over the years. Well, that moment in Pixar's history was when we tested that, and it was hard, but thankfully I think we passed the test. Toy Story 2 went on to became one of the most successful films we ever made by almost any measure. So, suffice it to say that yes, the 2nd version (which you saw in theatres and is now on the BluRay) is about a bagillion times better than the film we were working on. The story talent at the studio came together in a pretty incredible way and reworked everything. When they came back from the winter holidays in January '99, their pitch, and Steve Jobs's rallying cry that we could in fact get it done by the deadline later that year, are a few of the most vivid and moving memories I have of my 20 years at the studio." https://www.quora.com/Did-Pixar-accidentally-delete-Toy-Story-2-during-production/answer/Oren-Jacob/comment/937024 https://www.quora.com/Did-Pixar-accidentally-delete-Toy-Stor...
- kobeya 10y ago
  Out of curiosity, is there any outline of the prior script available publicly? I'm curious where they were taking the franchise before the rewrite.
  - dmart 10y ago
    I found this PDF[0] that purports to be the first draft of the script, but I can't vouch for its authenticity. It was linked from this summary on a Pixar fan wiki[1]. [0] http://web.archive.org/web/20121213100913/http://www.raindance.org/site/picture/upload//image/general/movies/toy_story_2.pdf http://web.archive.org/web/20121213100913/http://www.raindan... [1] http://pixar.wikia.com/wiki/Toy_Story_2_(original_storyline) http://pixar.wikia.com/wiki/Toy_Story_2_(original_storyline)
- 10y ago
xja 10y ago
That statement really resonated with me. So often something happens which seems like a total disaster, the end of the world, and you struggle desperately to fix it. In hindsight it turns out it didn't matter as much as you thought it did anyway. Has happened in so many startups I've worked at.
- brokenmachine 10y ago
  "The only stress and pressure in life is the stress and pressure you put on yourself". Life goes on.
Donzo 10y ago
I believe that the original version that was scrapped was intended to be a straight-to-video release. It was completely reworked when the company decided to give the project bigscreen treatment.
- rootbear 10y ago
  Almost. TS2 was originally a direct to video film. But Disney liked the work-in-progress so much that they approved making it a feature film. And Pixar management at the time wasn't really thrilled with the idea of having an "A" team that made feature films and a "B" team that made DTV films. That could lead to morale problems in the B team. It was much later that problems in the story lead to replacing the director and doing the restart.
huherto 10y ago
> "And then, some months later, Pixar rewrote the film from almost the ground up, and we made ToyStory2 again" Reminds me of Fred Brooks quote. "Plan to throw one away. You will anyhow".
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

by smcl 10y ago

dijit 10y ago

I disagree wholeheartedly, they had a rare chance to rebuild using their acquired knowledge with none of the debt or cruft. "We have to keep this scene even though it's not quite perfect because otherwise it's a waste of money". Maybe this is a bad example actually, movie industry is something you launch and market and leave. But the best architectures I've seen have been demolished, destroyed and rebuilt from the ground up for their purpose. Same with code.

integricho 10y ago
And I'm also pretty sure they reworked their backup and validation tools as well.
jnbiche 10y ago
> But the best architectures I've seen have been demolished, destroyed and rebuilt from the ground up for their purpose. This can also be a destructive siren call: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-never-do-part-i/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-... But I think it's not absolute. Sometimes rewrites are imperative.
- esquevin 10y ago
  In the case of toy story 2, I think the analogy would be that they ditched the product they were working on to create a different one. Thus making joel's point non relevant there
  - olavk 10y ago
    It wasn't a new product, they kept a lot of the assets (notably the characters and the universe) but rewrote the script extensively and had to scrap a lot of animation. I don't think an analogy to software rewrite works very well, the domains are so different. For example Joel makes the point that code have a lot of embedded information which you have to rediscover if you rewrite from scratch. This introduces a huge risk and uncertainty. If you rewrite a movie script halfway during production you have to scrap a lot of work but you don't really loose knowledge, so the risk is more manageable.
abpavel 10y ago
Same with government.
- K0SM0S 10y ago
  Indeed, about every couple century in history we come up with some new form of government. It's only ever so incremental (hence why 'revolutions' are few and major in scope), and often has to do with adapting to new conditions (technological and social change mostly).
smcl 10y ago
Right, but I'm thinking from the perspective of someone who's been working on something for ages, gone through the stress of nearly losing it, then miraculously recovering it ... only to have found that a lot of their work was ditched. You're right that it probably ended up better, and sister comments are right in that it wasn't ALL for naught ... but can you imagine the moment you found out it was being reworked?
- huxley 10y ago
  No need to imagine. It's not just during disasters like the Pixar case. Creative collaborative ventures like films and animation are filled with months of effort being deleted with a few quick keystrokes. Back when I was still in the film/video industry, it happened often, you kinda get accustomed to the ephemeral nature and you try not to get too attached to your work. Not always successfully but you try.

mabbo 10y ago

> all for naught? I bet you they were suddenly industry experts in source control and data backups.

Klathmon 10y ago
I made a mistake like this once, I feel most that are really dogmatic about backups have something like this. A long time ago I had a hard drive fail that had a bitcoin wallet with about 10 bitcoins in it. At the time it was worth a hundred USD or so. I tried to fix it myself, ended up failing and throwing the drive out. Right after that bitcoin started its meteoric climb. Every now and then I check the prices, then I go check that my backups are running, that my restores work, that my offsite backup is setup correctly, that every single one of my devices is backed up. It was a $9,000 life lesson (as of right now...)
- rebuilder 10y ago
  Having lost quite some Bitcoins myself to different errors, IMO it was a hundred USD lesson. You could have replaced them but chose not to. The value therefore was whatever they would have netted you at the time. Worrying about what could have been will just drive you nuts.
  - Klathmon 10y ago
    I know, I'm not actually as broken up about it as I make it sound sometimes. It was a mistake, and it could "technically" cost me 10 grand, so it's a nice number to remember when I think about the time I'm spending setting up and testing my backups. (And it's a fantastic story to tell others which can often get them to start using a backup system) In the end, it may end up being net positive in my life when I save something huge later.
- h1d 10y ago
  Caring to take good backups and the knowledge/skill of doing so is well worth more than $9K in the long run. Losing months of work is a mental killer. (What's worse is losing 100+ BTC to Gox. :p) I have not lost anything really important but I cannot live without at least 3 geographically separated backups of generations of backups for something I don't want to lose.

dahart 10y ago

A large percentage of files in a CG production are not shot specific, so no, the recovery work was definitely not wasted. There are sets, lighting setups, props, layouts, models, textures, shaders, character rigs, procedural and effects systems, etc., etc. A few of those things might have to be redone, but when those things are set up and the script changes, the main bulk of the work is cameras and character animation, and then re-rendering.

stpe 10y ago

In the comments, Oren addressed exactly that particular question: "We didn't scrap the models, but yes, we scrapped almost all the animation and almost all the layout and all the lighting. And it was worth it. Changing the script saved the film, which in turn allowed Buzz and Woody to carry on for future generation (see ToyStory3 for how awesome that universe continues to be - well done to everyone who worked on the lastest installment!) and, in some ways, set a major cornerstone in the culture of Pixar. You may have heard John or Steve or Ed mention "Quality is a good business model" over the years. Well, that moment in Pixar's history was when we tested that, and it was hard, but thankfully I think we passed the test. Toy Story 2 went on to became one of the most successful films we ever made by almost any measure. So, suffice it to say that yes, the 2nd version (which you saw in theatres and is now on the BluRay) is about a bagillion times better than the film we were working on. The story talent at the studio came together in a pretty incredible way and reworked everything. When they came back from the winter holidays in January '99, their pitch, and Steve Jobs's rallying cry that we could in fact get it done by the deadline later that year, are a few of the most vivid and moving memories I have of my 20 years at the studio." https://www.quora.com/Did-Pixar-accidentally-delete-Toy-Story-2-during-production/answer/Oren-Jacob/comment/937024 https://www.quora.com/Did-Pixar-accidentally-delete-Toy-Stor...

kobeya 10y ago
Out of curiosity, is there any outline of the prior script available publicly? I'm curious where they were taking the franchise before the rewrite.
- dmart 10y ago
  I found this PDF[0] that purports to be the first draft of the script, but I can't vouch for its authenticity. It was linked from this summary on a Pixar fan wiki[1]. [0] http://web.archive.org/web/20121213100913/http://www.raindance.org/site/picture/upload//image/general/movies/toy_story_2.pdf http://web.archive.org/web/20121213100913/http://www.raindan... [1] http://pixar.wikia.com/wiki/Toy_Story_2_(original_storyline) http://pixar.wikia.com/wiki/Toy_Story_2_(original_storyline)
10y ago

xja 10y ago

That statement really resonated with me. So often something happens which seems like a total disaster, the end of the world, and you struggle desperately to fix it. In hindsight it turns out it didn't matter as much as you thought it did anyway. Has happened in so many startups I've worked at.

brokenmachine 10y ago
"The only stress and pressure in life is the stress and pressure you put on yourself". Life goes on.

Donzo 10y ago

I believe that the original version that was scrapped was intended to be a straight-to-video release. It was completely reworked when the company decided to give the project bigscreen treatment.

rootbear 10y ago
Almost. TS2 was originally a direct to video film. But Disney liked the work-in-progress so much that they approved making it a feature film. And Pixar management at the time wasn't really thrilled with the idea of having an "A" team that made feature films and a "B" team that made DTV films. That could lead to morale problems in the B team. It was much later that problems in the story lead to replacing the director and doing the restart.

huherto 10y ago

> "And then, some months later, Pixar rewrote the film from almost the ground up, and we made ToyStory2 again" Reminds me of Fred Brooks quote. "Plan to throw one away. You will anyhow".

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]