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"I want my money back!" Margret Thatcher at the European Union summit in Dublin in 1980 "That such an unnecessary and irrational project as building a Europea

by harryf 10y ago

"I want my money back!" Margret Thatcher at the European Union summit in Dublin in 1980 "That such an unnecessary and irrational project as building a European superstate was ever embarked upon will seem in future years to be perhaps the greatest folly of the modern era. And that Britain, with her traditional strengths and global destiny, should ever have been part of it will appear a political error of historic magnitude." Margret Thatcher from her book Statecraft published in 2003 ... just pointing out that Margaret Thatchers views on Europe were nuanced at best. Probably best explained by this segment from Yes Minister https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37iHSwA1SwE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37iHSwA1SwE

emptyfile 10y ago
Right, which is why the UK, very successfully, blocked every attempt at EU integration and secured opt outs out of Euro and Schengen for itself. As a European, I believe I'm not alone in thinking it's great that the biggest obstacle to EU integration is leaving the EU, we're just all very puzzled as to why considering the UK had the best deal possible in the EU.
- digi_owl 10y ago
  Thing is, and it took me all too long to learn this, Schengen is not what enables foreign workers to enter another EU member nation. It just makes it easier. The Brexit yes came overwhelmingly form the old industrial areas of UK. From the towns and such that has seen their quality of life stagnate or deteriorate while the jobs gets done by foreigners that come by the busload. Damn it, i don't live in UK but i have seen the phenomena myself. A local wharf some years back had a boom year, and the the peak there were perhaps twice as many foreigners working there as locals.
  - emptyfile 10y ago
    All EU's fault obviously. Minimum wage, union nagotiated wages, restricting benefits for non working immigrants, IDs to combat illegal immigration, unused emergency brakes for immigration, none of that matters it's the damn EU's fault and most definitely not the UK government. I promised myself I will only post one comment and not get dragged into any discussions so I this is my last one.
    - omegaworks 10y ago
      Wherever a scapegoat is needed it always seems to be the foreigners and immigrants first to be fingered.
  - portref 10y ago
    Can't just blame post-industrial areas, SE England voted to leave too.
- laingc 10y ago
  And I'm not the only resident of Germany who wishes that we would follow Britain's example. I likely have a biased sample, but amongst my colleagues and friends, I don't know anyone who wants further European integration, and most want out completely. Anecdata cuts both ways.
  - gls2ro 10y ago
    If I may ask what are your reasons of wanting to get out of EU? I'm interested if possible in an overview of short term and long terms objectives and gains/advantages.
    - laingc 10y ago
      I don't want to write a thesis here, but hopefully a bullet-pointed list will suffice: * The EU is not only undemocratic in the sense that the powerful European Commission is unelected, but is in fact antidemocratic in the sense that one generally has to have lost a democratic election in one's own country to be appointed to it. * The EU places an enormous regulatory drain on its member states, issuing a stifling number of pro-corporate, anti-free-market regulations every year * Policies such as the Common Agricultural Policy, the Clinical Trials Directive, and the Port Services directive are extremely illiberal policies, introduced to satisfy special interests. * The EU is in the process of exporting draconian, crushing German-style data protection law to the rest of the continent. * The European Court of Justice is not only activist, but also highly incompetent, lacking the institutional jurisprudential experience of proper supreme courts, such as those found in the UK. * The Common Market is not a free trade agreement, it is a customs union. Combined with the EU's inability to negotiate free trade agreements (held up by Italian tomato growers, French vintners, and just about every other special interest wanting protection), this means that export-focussed economies such as Germany's are hampered from engaging with faster-growing economies - and just about every other continent's economy is growing faster than Europe's. As I said, I don't want to write a thesis here, but these are just a few of the many reasons why I believe that Germany - and almost every other country in Europe - would be better off making its own laws by a democratic process, trading and cooperating freely with its friends and allies, rather than being part of an antidemocratic, supranational bureaucracy.
derrickdirge 10y ago
> global destiny Does this mean what it sounds like it means?
- mathw 10y ago
  Yes, and it's something the Brexit crowd are relying upon in their visions of our prosperity after leaving the EU. I happen to think it's a load of hogwash, but I really don't want to see them proven wrong because I'll still have to live through it.
- robert_foss 10y ago
  Well, it's a marketing prop that tries to refocus the attention on a conceivably positive aspect.
- robert_foss 10y ago
  Well, it's a marketing prop that tries to refocus the attention on a conceivably positive aspect. I don't think any new imperial ambitions will go over well.
- mangecoeur 10y ago
  People in the UK haven't quite gotten over that whole global empire thing. Every now and then they make documentaries about how they brought civilization to India or something.
  - kchoudhu 10y ago
    I mean, the East India Company is still a going concern. It's worrying on numerous levels.
    - detritus 10y ago
      Oh dear. Go check what the 'modern East India Company' actually sells, who owns it and why he bought it.
      - 10y ago
robert_foss 10y ago
That yes minister clip really does seem to reflect what has happened here.
- hackerboos 10y ago
  Context https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37iHSwA1SwE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37iHSwA1SwE
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
tomeehan 10y ago
There's a difference between a free trade area and a political union. Thatcher was thoroughly against the centralisation of power and monetary policy in Europe, but all for free trade.
- mrec 10y ago
  Yes. There's also a difference between a free trade area and a customs union. A lot of Americans in particular seem to think the EU works something like NAFTA when it comes to trade.

by harryf 10y ago

emptyfile 10y ago

Right, which is why the UK, very successfully, blocked every attempt at EU integration and secured opt outs out of Euro and Schengen for itself. As a European, I believe I'm not alone in thinking it's great that the biggest obstacle to EU integration is leaving the EU, we're just all very puzzled as to why considering the UK had the best deal possible in the EU.

digi_owl 10y ago
Thing is, and it took me all too long to learn this, Schengen is not what enables foreign workers to enter another EU member nation. It just makes it easier. The Brexit yes came overwhelmingly form the old industrial areas of UK. From the towns and such that has seen their quality of life stagnate or deteriorate while the jobs gets done by foreigners that come by the busload. Damn it, i don't live in UK but i have seen the phenomena myself. A local wharf some years back had a boom year, and the the peak there were perhaps twice as many foreigners working there as locals.
- emptyfile 10y ago
  All EU's fault obviously. Minimum wage, union nagotiated wages, restricting benefits for non working immigrants, IDs to combat illegal immigration, unused emergency brakes for immigration, none of that matters it's the damn EU's fault and most definitely not the UK government. I promised myself I will only post one comment and not get dragged into any discussions so I this is my last one.
  - omegaworks 10y ago
    Wherever a scapegoat is needed it always seems to be the foreigners and immigrants first to be fingered.
- portref 10y ago
  Can't just blame post-industrial areas, SE England voted to leave too.
laingc 10y ago
And I'm not the only resident of Germany who wishes that we would follow Britain's example. I likely have a biased sample, but amongst my colleagues and friends, I don't know anyone who wants further European integration, and most want out completely. Anecdata cuts both ways.
- gls2ro 10y ago
  If I may ask what are your reasons of wanting to get out of EU? I'm interested if possible in an overview of short term and long terms objectives and gains/advantages.
  - laingc 10y ago
    I don't want to write a thesis here, but hopefully a bullet-pointed list will suffice: * The EU is not only undemocratic in the sense that the powerful European Commission is unelected, but is in fact antidemocratic in the sense that one generally has to have lost a democratic election in one's own country to be appointed to it. * The EU places an enormous regulatory drain on its member states, issuing a stifling number of pro-corporate, anti-free-market regulations every year * Policies such as the Common Agricultural Policy, the Clinical Trials Directive, and the Port Services directive are extremely illiberal policies, introduced to satisfy special interests. * The EU is in the process of exporting draconian, crushing German-style data protection law to the rest of the continent. * The European Court of Justice is not only activist, but also highly incompetent, lacking the institutional jurisprudential experience of proper supreme courts, such as those found in the UK. * The Common Market is not a free trade agreement, it is a customs union. Combined with the EU's inability to negotiate free trade agreements (held up by Italian tomato growers, French vintners, and just about every other special interest wanting protection), this means that export-focussed economies such as Germany's are hampered from engaging with faster-growing economies - and just about every other continent's economy is growing faster than Europe's. As I said, I don't want to write a thesis here, but these are just a few of the many reasons why I believe that Germany - and almost every other country in Europe - would be better off making its own laws by a democratic process, trading and cooperating freely with its friends and allies, rather than being part of an antidemocratic, supranational bureaucracy.

derrickdirge 10y ago

> global destiny Does this mean what it sounds like it means?

mathw 10y ago
Yes, and it's something the Brexit crowd are relying upon in their visions of our prosperity after leaving the EU. I happen to think it's a load of hogwash, but I really don't want to see them proven wrong because I'll still have to live through it.
robert_foss 10y ago
Well, it's a marketing prop that tries to refocus the attention on a conceivably positive aspect.
robert_foss 10y ago
Well, it's a marketing prop that tries to refocus the attention on a conceivably positive aspect. I don't think any new imperial ambitions will go over well.
mangecoeur 10y ago
People in the UK haven't quite gotten over that whole global empire thing. Every now and then they make documentaries about how they brought civilization to India or something.
- kchoudhu 10y ago
  I mean, the East India Company is still a going concern. It's worrying on numerous levels.
  - detritus 10y ago
    Oh dear. Go check what the 'modern East India Company' actually sells, who owns it and why he bought it.
    - 10y ago

robert_foss 10y ago

That yes minister clip really does seem to reflect what has happened here.

hackerboos 10y ago
Context https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37iHSwA1SwE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37iHSwA1SwE

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

tomeehan 10y ago

There's a difference between a free trade area and a political union. Thatcher was thoroughly against the centralisation of power and monetary policy in Europe, but all for free trade.

mrec 10y ago
Yes. There's also a difference between a free trade area and a customs union. A lot of Americans in particular seem to think the EU works something like NAFTA when it comes to trade.