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I think Britain will eventually come out of this stronger. However, it's clear in the interim period (which could be 5-10 years I think) there could be huge tr

I think Britain will eventually come out of this stronger. However, it's clear in the interim period (which could be 5-10 years I think) there could be huge transitional issues. Whether that pain is worth suffering, only time will tell. Personally, I am not a huge fan of these currency, trading or political blocs. The WTO exists for trade and I would much prefer it to be the vehicle for trade, rather than groups of geographically close-knit countries.

cs02rm0 10y ago
It chimes with UNIX philosophy for me. Organisations like the WTO which do (approximately) one thing and one thing well are preferable to those that try and do a bit of everything. It keeps the politics to a minimum. Likewise, subject to the outcome of the negotiations, I imagine after a period of uncertainty and perhaps some turmoil it will be for the best. The timing may be unfortunate for some though.
- gonvaled 10y ago
  Agree that the ideal situation is to have several WTO-like entities enforcing policies in different areas, but integrated into a global organization (call it the UN). The EU is a good way to reach that final, ideal state.
sangnoir 10y ago
> Personally, I am not a huge fan of these currency, trading or political blocs. The EU seems to be pretty effective at preventing wars within Europe. That's a good enough pro to cancel out all the other cons on my list. But hey, it's been three generations since our last big war, we are probably overdue on a reminder of why fully-industrialized total war is not such a great idea.
- gonvaled 10y ago
  Honestly, I think the war argument is a bit outdated, and not relevant currently. I like the EU for what it offers me: a market where I can buy and sell things knowing that some minimum rules are being respected, an area which allows me, as a person the freedom that I think every human being has, to move and work wherever he wants (although this is currently limited to EU citizens), and lots of other advantages. Peace is good collateral effect.
- youngtaff 10y ago
  Are you sure about that? Have we had no wars in Europe since WW2 because of the EU, or because the generations before us were sick of war? Also the EU didn't stop a war in the Balkans…
  - gonvaled 10y ago
    The Balkans were not in the EU. The EU gives economic incentives to its members not to go to war. It does not magically prevent wars all around the world.
    - youngtaff 10y ago
      The original quote was "The EU seems to be pretty effective at preventing wars within Europe." Last time I checked the Balkans were within Europe! Look I voted to remain and I'm probably going to leave the UK as I don't want to live in the UK post Brexit. That said there's as many crazy claims for the success of the EU as there were for the UK leaving. As an institution the EU is very much out of touch with the needs of the common people, and you've only got to look at how they treated Greece as an example (and the whole stupid thing of moving MPs to Strasbourg once a month)
      - sangnoir 10y ago
        When someone says "Europe" in the context of the EU, I thought it would be obvious that they are referring to the member states. How would the EU prevent non-members from wars? That does not make sense. The UK was never really committed to the EU and yet it got special treatment time and time again. I say this as an EU outsider. The "common people" usually want all upsides with no downsides. No one can deliver that, buy the populist politicians depend on it and promise people the moon (see "closed borders and common market"). Good luck with the Tories and IndyRef 2.

cs02rm0 10y ago

It chimes with UNIX philosophy for me. Organisations like the WTO which do (approximately) one thing and one thing well are preferable to those that try and do a bit of everything. It keeps the politics to a minimum. Likewise, subject to the outcome of the negotiations, I imagine after a period of uncertainty and perhaps some turmoil it will be for the best. The timing may be unfortunate for some though.

gonvaled 10y ago
Agree that the ideal situation is to have several WTO-like entities enforcing policies in different areas, but integrated into a global organization (call it the UN). The EU is a good way to reach that final, ideal state.

sangnoir 10y ago

> Personally, I am not a huge fan of these currency, trading or political blocs. The EU seems to be pretty effective at preventing wars within Europe. That's a good enough pro to cancel out all the other cons on my list. But hey, it's been three generations since our last big war, we are probably overdue on a reminder of why fully-industrialized total war is not such a great idea.

gonvaled 10y ago
Honestly, I think the war argument is a bit outdated, and not relevant currently. I like the EU for what it offers me: a market where I can buy and sell things knowing that some minimum rules are being respected, an area which allows me, as a person the freedom that I think every human being has, to move and work wherever he wants (although this is currently limited to EU citizens), and lots of other advantages. Peace is good collateral effect.
youngtaff 10y ago
Are you sure about that? Have we had no wars in Europe since WW2 because of the EU, or because the generations before us were sick of war? Also the EU didn't stop a war in the Balkans…
- gonvaled 10y ago
  The Balkans were not in the EU. The EU gives economic incentives to its members not to go to war. It does not magically prevent wars all around the world.
  - youngtaff 10y ago
    The original quote was "The EU seems to be pretty effective at preventing wars within Europe." Last time I checked the Balkans were within Europe! Look I voted to remain and I'm probably going to leave the UK as I don't want to live in the UK post Brexit. That said there's as many crazy claims for the success of the EU as there were for the UK leaving. As an institution the EU is very much out of touch with the needs of the common people, and you've only got to look at how they treated Greece as an example (and the whole stupid thing of moving MPs to Strasbourg once a month)
    - sangnoir 10y ago
      When someone says "Europe" in the context of the EU, I thought it would be obvious that they are referring to the member states. How would the EU prevent non-members from wars? That does not make sense. The UK was never really committed to the EU and yet it got special treatment time and time again. I say this as an EU outsider. The "common people" usually want all upsides with no downsides. No one can deliver that, buy the populist politicians depend on it and promise people the moon (see "closed borders and common market"). Good luck with the Tories and IndyRef 2.