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Warefare has always been largely economic. It's what you are fighting for, it's how you win. See Sun Tzus Art of War for an early example of military focus. Be

by ggame 10y ago

Warefare has always been largely economic. It's what you are fighting for, it's how you win. See Sun Tzus Art of War for an early example of military focus. Because of the well known destructive nature of war; more wars have been fought to prevent future wars than have not. E.g. The war to end all wars (WWI) The EU was intended to cause the economic and political crisis we are seeing. A shared currency among such different exonomies is fatally flawed and requires a superstate solution - which was actual goal. Citizens would not knowingly vote for this, but as democracy in Europe is seen as a war risk, it is considered proper to suppress it. Of course this effort to prevent future wars will inevitably lead to a future war. Thus, I consider the break up of the EU as the only path to preventing war. Either way we're entering interesting times.

pjc50 10y ago
> but as democracy in Europe is seen as a war risk This is conspiracy-theory garbage.
- jessaustin 10y ago
  This is the second time in this thread you've dismissed others' arguments in abrupt emotional fashion. Please let us see your work.
  - pjc50 10y ago
    The parent comment does not make an argument. It makes a set of unsupported statements about the intent of the EU. "Democracy in Europe is seen as a war risk" is not an argument. By whom is it seen as a war risk? What are your sources for this? Are you going to attribute this to generic "elites" without being specific? Rather a lot of people have argued over the years that the purpose of the EU is to prevent war, going all the way back to the Schuman declaration: http://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/symbols/europe-day/schuman-declaration_en http://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/symbols/europe-day/... There's a source for you. Now, how about unpacking that "democracy is seen [by whom] as a war risk [why? how?]"
    - ggame 10y ago
      I think you have your parents mixed up. Assuming this was for me; I walked you through the logic and am in total agreement that a large part of the rational for the EU was to prevent war in Europe. My case is that the EU is undemocratic. Therefore when the these two are conflated the resulting inverse is democracy is a war risk. I gave the case of my pro EU German friends but I know many others. A counter argument would be that the EU is democratic but no one is making that. Of course America with its democracy exporting foreign policy gives the rational that democracies don't go to war. I understand why the idea that democracy is a war risk is so foreign. (Assuming you're also American) I'm pro democracy and anti-war and I believe the EU, despite its intentions, is the cause of circumstances that will lead to war. The definition of irony. Already we can see the rise of openly fascist parties, it won't be long until they start winning elections.
      - pjc50 10y ago
        No, you've not laid out the logic by which that statement follows from the others. > America with its democracy exporting foreign policy gives the rational that democracies don't go to war. I'd actually argue quite a lot with this: the US does not export democracy, it exports capitalism and calls it democracy. It's quite happy to overthrow democratic socialist governments. Really the key factor is that trading partners don't go to war, because then it's unprofitable and/or they don't have enough independent infrastructure to survive. You can't go to war with your nose to spite your face. This is partly why, despite the bad relations between the EU and Russia and the small war in Ukraine, the gas pipeline remains untouched. They need the money and we need the gas. And your inference that I'm American is also wrong. I'm an Englishman living in Scotland supporting Scottish independence within the EU. In fact, I spent a lot of time trying to be a "reasonable" Euroskeptic for years, but this year of the referendum I gave up because the unreasonable side has taken over. Yes, the EU is not very democratic and parts of the EU get economically steamrollered. Guess what - this happens within countries too. Greece is to the EU as 80s Liverpool and the "north" was to the Thatcher government: abandoned. Leaving the EU does not make Europe go away, it doesn't solve any of the economic or social problems, but it does remove a mechanism for resolving them peacefully. The UK is not very democratic on close inspection either, and all these threats to remove one of the few bits of black-letter constitutional law we do have - ECHR - are really not encouraging.
  - ionised 10y ago
    because they provided no facts or evidence to back up what they are saying. It's all ideological conjecture.
- ggame 10y ago
  I was told this by EU loving Germans with the explanation that the Germans, and Europeans, can't be trusted and need a superstate to prevent war. "Never again." Obviously forgetting the US civil war. It's a natural position that logically falls out when you combine the anti-war rational behind the EU with the undemocracy nature of the EU. That the EU is undemocratic is in general agreement. If you have evidence to the contrary I'd love to see it.
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    > Obviously forgetting the US civil war. Clearly, you mean the various internal wars of (among other European superstates) the Holy Roman Empire, which are far more relevant to a European superstate than the US Civil War is.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - ggame 10y ago
      I figured one counter example was sufficient. Thanks for adding to the list

by ggame 10y ago

pjc50 10y ago

> but as democracy in Europe is seen as a war risk This is conspiracy-theory garbage.

jessaustin 10y ago
This is the second time in this thread you've dismissed others' arguments in abrupt emotional fashion. Please let us see your work.
- pjc50 10y ago
  The parent comment does not make an argument. It makes a set of unsupported statements about the intent of the EU. "Democracy in Europe is seen as a war risk" is not an argument. By whom is it seen as a war risk? What are your sources for this? Are you going to attribute this to generic "elites" without being specific? Rather a lot of people have argued over the years that the purpose of the EU is to prevent war, going all the way back to the Schuman declaration: http://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/symbols/europe-day/schuman-declaration_en http://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/symbols/europe-day/... There's a source for you. Now, how about unpacking that "democracy is seen [by whom] as a war risk [why? how?]"
  - ggame 10y ago
    I think you have your parents mixed up. Assuming this was for me; I walked you through the logic and am in total agreement that a large part of the rational for the EU was to prevent war in Europe. My case is that the EU is undemocratic. Therefore when the these two are conflated the resulting inverse is democracy is a war risk. I gave the case of my pro EU German friends but I know many others. A counter argument would be that the EU is democratic but no one is making that. Of course America with its democracy exporting foreign policy gives the rational that democracies don't go to war. I understand why the idea that democracy is a war risk is so foreign. (Assuming you're also American) I'm pro democracy and anti-war and I believe the EU, despite its intentions, is the cause of circumstances that will lead to war. The definition of irony. Already we can see the rise of openly fascist parties, it won't be long until they start winning elections.
    - pjc50 10y ago
      No, you've not laid out the logic by which that statement follows from the others. > America with its democracy exporting foreign policy gives the rational that democracies don't go to war. I'd actually argue quite a lot with this: the US does not export democracy, it exports capitalism and calls it democracy. It's quite happy to overthrow democratic socialist governments. Really the key factor is that trading partners don't go to war, because then it's unprofitable and/or they don't have enough independent infrastructure to survive. You can't go to war with your nose to spite your face. This is partly why, despite the bad relations between the EU and Russia and the small war in Ukraine, the gas pipeline remains untouched. They need the money and we need the gas. And your inference that I'm American is also wrong. I'm an Englishman living in Scotland supporting Scottish independence within the EU. In fact, I spent a lot of time trying to be a "reasonable" Euroskeptic for years, but this year of the referendum I gave up because the unreasonable side has taken over. Yes, the EU is not very democratic and parts of the EU get economically steamrollered. Guess what - this happens within countries too. Greece is to the EU as 80s Liverpool and the "north" was to the Thatcher government: abandoned. Leaving the EU does not make Europe go away, it doesn't solve any of the economic or social problems, but it does remove a mechanism for resolving them peacefully. The UK is not very democratic on close inspection either, and all these threats to remove one of the few bits of black-letter constitutional law we do have - ECHR - are really not encouraging.
- ionised 10y ago
  because they provided no facts or evidence to back up what they are saying. It's all ideological conjecture.
ggame 10y ago
I was told this by EU loving Germans with the explanation that the Germans, and Europeans, can't be trusted and need a superstate to prevent war. "Never again." Obviously forgetting the US civil war. It's a natural position that logically falls out when you combine the anti-war rational behind the EU with the undemocracy nature of the EU. That the EU is undemocratic is in general agreement. If you have evidence to the contrary I'd love to see it.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > Obviously forgetting the US civil war. Clearly, you mean the various internal wars of (among other European superstates) the Holy Roman Empire, which are far more relevant to a European superstate than the US Civil War is.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - ggame 10y ago
    I figured one counter example was sufficient. Thanks for adding to the list