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> Farming lobby in Europe For my perspective in France, here the farming lobby is inexistant/inefficient, since farmers had to big pretty big actions all over

> Farming lobby in Europe For my perspective in France, here the farming lobby is inexistant/inefficient, since farmers had to big pretty big actions all over France just to raise the price of milk. So I think it's not the farming lobby, but the fertilizers and pesticides lobby.

roel_v 10y ago
It's a lot more complicated than that. There isn't one single 'farming lobby'. France, to take your example, has a highly inefficient agricultural system, heavily dependent on CAP subsidies. There has been massive pressure the last two decades to reduce that, but it hasn't happened yet and probably won't for years to come. This is a form of 'lobbying' (those farmers get benefits from those subsidies), even if those farmers didn't have the clout to set higher milk price floors (a weird concept in the first place, since this is a very basic supply/demand thing - the reason they don't make enough is because their per-liter cost is too high compared to the competition; sure you can say that that's because extra-EU farmers don't have to internalize environmental costs to the same degree the EU ones have to, but then it's a matter of setting import restrictions, not having an artificial price floor enforced. But I digress.) Of course fertilizers and pesticide produces are an aspect of the abstract concept of 'the Ag lobby', but it's much more nuanced than that.
- TeMPOraL 10y ago
  > a weird concept in the first place, since this is a very basic supply/demand thing (...) but then it's a matter of setting import restrictions, not having an artificial price floor enforced I sometimes wonder if such concepts aren't simply the limits of human mind in action - price floor is simple, farmers can do some basic calculations and figure out that "if only milk costed at least €this, we could finally make a profit on it" (this is obviously ignoring all the clever ways markets can work around such increases, but that's complexity again). It's also a single thing to ask for. On the other hand, changing import tariffs is complicated, affects many things, and its effect on milk prices is indirect and therefore hard to predict. It's like two different perspectives - from God's eye view on the country as a system, it's obvious you have to tweak some internals to get the desired effect. But from the perspective of people on the sides of the system asking someone to change something, those internals may be unavailable and instead of picking what's best, they have to pick what's available.
- tomp 10y ago
  > sure you can say that that's because extra-EU farmers don't have to internalize environmental costs to the same degree the EU ones have to, but then it's a matter of setting import restrictions A great argument against the current version of globalisation. Free trade is good, dumping isn't!
SpeakMouthWords 10y ago
> For my perspective in France, here the farming lobby is inexistant/inefficient Tell that to the EU's Common Agricultural Policy. The kickbacks France gets compared to other countries is insane. Your lobbyists have been most effective!
- jeromenerf 10y ago
  According to the FAO, France agriculture is one of the world's most diverse, productive and qualitative. To rephrase it: France exports A LOT of goods, produced at intensive yields and high costs, with a high dependency on subsidies and technology/pesticides. Quality is great but, to say the least, far from sustainable.
krzyk 10y ago
French farmers are the biggest group of farmers that is subsidized by EU. For me it is the source of everything what's wrong with farming in EU. Because of subsidies they produce crops that are not developed in efficient way (because they will receive subsidy either way). Because of them e.g. Polish farmers are forced to produce less milk than they have ability to - milk producers are given fines if they create to much milk, which is ridiculous.
- byroot 10y ago
  > Polish farmers are forced to produce less milk than they have ability to - milk producers are given fines if they create to much milk, which is ridiculous. It's the exact same thing in France. It's not uncommon for farmers to dump the milk they overproduced to not get fined. French farmer aren't any less productive than other european farmers, they simply target another quality for the most part.
- ddebernardy 10y ago
  Just to add to the other answer, which stresses that French farmers are just as productive, the reason EU farmers and their US farmer counterparts get subsidies is geostrategic: if for some reason you end up at war with your food partners, the last thing you want is a starving population. If, overnight, farmers need to start producing twice as much, you want to make sure that it's a possibility. (And yes, it's also soft power when dealing with developing countries.)
- CPLX 10y ago
  In exchange for this "problem" however the French get the French countryside, which is fucking awesome. When people discuss this issue without at least somewhat acknowledging that motivation it seems hard to take the argument seriously.
  - lisael_ 10y ago
    It's very serion, it's exactly the heart of the issue in France. The French countryside is huge (as compared to the urban area) and it's not a wild space, as, say, a big part of the US territory. It has always been cropped. You just can't stop. You have to find a way to keep people working and living in this area otherwise within a decade or two, France is a rainforest. That means paying farmers with EU subsides.

roel_v 10y ago

It's a lot more complicated than that. There isn't one single 'farming lobby'. France, to take your example, has a highly inefficient agricultural system, heavily dependent on CAP subsidies. There has been massive pressure the last two decades to reduce that, but it hasn't happened yet and probably won't for years to come. This is a form of 'lobbying' (those farmers get benefits from those subsidies), even if those farmers didn't have the clout to set higher milk price floors (a weird concept in the first place, since this is a very basic supply/demand thing - the reason they don't make enough is because their per-liter cost is too high compared to the competition; sure you can say that that's because extra-EU farmers don't have to internalize environmental costs to the same degree the EU ones have to, but then it's a matter of setting import restrictions, not having an artificial price floor enforced. But I digress.) Of course fertilizers and pesticide produces are an aspect of the abstract concept of 'the Ag lobby', but it's much more nuanced than that.

TeMPOraL 10y ago
> a weird concept in the first place, since this is a very basic supply/demand thing (...) but then it's a matter of setting import restrictions, not having an artificial price floor enforced I sometimes wonder if such concepts aren't simply the limits of human mind in action - price floor is simple, farmers can do some basic calculations and figure out that "if only milk costed at least €this, we could finally make a profit on it" (this is obviously ignoring all the clever ways markets can work around such increases, but that's complexity again). It's also a single thing to ask for. On the other hand, changing import tariffs is complicated, affects many things, and its effect on milk prices is indirect and therefore hard to predict. It's like two different perspectives - from God's eye view on the country as a system, it's obvious you have to tweak some internals to get the desired effect. But from the perspective of people on the sides of the system asking someone to change something, those internals may be unavailable and instead of picking what's best, they have to pick what's available.
tomp 10y ago
> sure you can say that that's because extra-EU farmers don't have to internalize environmental costs to the same degree the EU ones have to, but then it's a matter of setting import restrictions A great argument against the current version of globalisation. Free trade is good, dumping isn't!

SpeakMouthWords 10y ago

> For my perspective in France, here the farming lobby is inexistant/inefficient Tell that to the EU's Common Agricultural Policy. The kickbacks France gets compared to other countries is insane. Your lobbyists have been most effective!

jeromenerf 10y ago
According to the FAO, France agriculture is one of the world's most diverse, productive and qualitative. To rephrase it: France exports A LOT of goods, produced at intensive yields and high costs, with a high dependency on subsidies and technology/pesticides. Quality is great but, to say the least, far from sustainable.

krzyk 10y ago

French farmers are the biggest group of farmers that is subsidized by EU. For me it is the source of everything what's wrong with farming in EU. Because of subsidies they produce crops that are not developed in efficient way (because they will receive subsidy either way). Because of them e.g. Polish farmers are forced to produce less milk than they have ability to - milk producers are given fines if they create to much milk, which is ridiculous.

byroot 10y ago
> Polish farmers are forced to produce less milk than they have ability to - milk producers are given fines if they create to much milk, which is ridiculous. It's the exact same thing in France. It's not uncommon for farmers to dump the milk they overproduced to not get fined. French farmer aren't any less productive than other european farmers, they simply target another quality for the most part.
ddebernardy 10y ago
Just to add to the other answer, which stresses that French farmers are just as productive, the reason EU farmers and their US farmer counterparts get subsidies is geostrategic: if for some reason you end up at war with your food partners, the last thing you want is a starving population. If, overnight, farmers need to start producing twice as much, you want to make sure that it's a possibility. (And yes, it's also soft power when dealing with developing countries.)
CPLX 10y ago
In exchange for this "problem" however the French get the French countryside, which is fucking awesome. When people discuss this issue without at least somewhat acknowledging that motivation it seems hard to take the argument seriously.
- lisael_ 10y ago
  It's very serion, it's exactly the heart of the issue in France. The French countryside is huge (as compared to the urban area) and it's not a wild space, as, say, a big part of the US territory. It has always been cropped. You just can't stop. You have to find a way to keep people working and living in this area otherwise within a decade or two, France is a rainforest. That means paying farmers with EU subsides.