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Depends on how we define "organic". If it can include pesticides, that's a bit depressing. There's a way to avoid pesticides altogether: grow local apples tha

Depends on how we define "organic". If it can include pesticides, that's a bit depressing. There's a way to avoid pesticides altogether: grow local apples that thrive in the local environment. Some will get eaten by worms, some will rot… Select them out. You don't always need those pesticides.

dagw 10y ago
I'm not aware of any definition of organic farming that excludes the use of pesticides. There is also Biodynamic farming, which does avoids pesticides and artificial fertilizer.
TeMPOraL 10y ago
From what I hear, it does. More than that - because "organic" is at least in some part based around scaring people with "unnatural things" and "evil chemicals", it limits its choice of pesticides, potentially excluding ones that are less toxic and less harmful, just because they're not "natural".
roel_v 10y ago
Look, pesticides are a cost. If there was a way that was as easy as you make it out to be, farmers would already do it, because the market would force them to. This whole discussion is about the fact that it isn't as simple as saying 'just grow local'. People do that already and those apples cost 2-3 times what they cost in the supermarket (apart from a few weeks in september when they are 1/2 of supermarket prices because there's a glut of apples that will otherwise spoil). The question is now: how do we scale this up, so that we can feed everybody this way, including those people who can't afford such price premiums?
- loup-vaillant 10y ago
  > because the market would force them to. The market here is heavily influenced by government policies. Both American and European farmers have subsidies that apply if they grow their food in a certain way. Organic food in particular tend to have less subsidies. I suggest we manipulate the market differently. Or less. I don't know. > The question is now: how do we scale this up, That's the hard part. Going organic/permaculture/what have you needs a transition period. Reviving a dead soil takes 3 years, during which you don't do much —if at all. After that, you still need 12 years before the chemical residues disperse enough for your food to really count as "organic". And hardest of all, even if we manage to have the same or better yields per unit of surface (which I fully believe is possible), those new methods are likely to require more labour. We need more farmers, and we need them soon.

dagw 10y ago

I'm not aware of any definition of organic farming that excludes the use of pesticides. There is also Biodynamic farming, which does avoids pesticides and artificial fertilizer.

TeMPOraL 10y ago

From what I hear, it does. More than that - because "organic" is at least in some part based around scaring people with "unnatural things" and "evil chemicals", it limits its choice of pesticides, potentially excluding ones that are less toxic and less harmful, just because they're not "natural".

roel_v 10y ago

Look, pesticides are a cost. If there was a way that was as easy as you make it out to be, farmers would already do it, because the market would force them to. This whole discussion is about the fact that it isn't as simple as saying 'just grow local'. People do that already and those apples cost 2-3 times what they cost in the supermarket (apart from a few weeks in september when they are 1/2 of supermarket prices because there's a glut of apples that will otherwise spoil). The question is now: how do we scale this up, so that we can feed everybody this way, including those people who can't afford such price premiums?

loup-vaillant 10y ago
> because the market would force them to. The market here is heavily influenced by government policies. Both American and European farmers have subsidies that apply if they grow their food in a certain way. Organic food in particular tend to have less subsidies. I suggest we manipulate the market differently. Or less. I don't know. > The question is now: how do we scale this up, That's the hard part. Going organic/permaculture/what have you needs a transition period. Reviving a dead soil takes 3 years, during which you don't do much —if at all. After that, you still need 12 years before the chemical residues disperse enough for your food to really count as "organic". And hardest of all, even if we manage to have the same or better yields per unit of surface (which I fully believe is possible), those new methods are likely to require more labour. We need more farmers, and we need them soon.