5 ms·

It has nothing to do with familiarity, it's due to the checker not being able to identify safe usages that are obviously safe to a human. Atleast steveklabnik

by braveo 10y ago

It has nothing to do with familiarity, it's due to the checker not being able to identify safe usages that are obviously safe to a human. Atleast steveklabnik had the good sense to acknowledge the issue rather than blame it on the developer.

Manishearth 10y ago
I'm not blaming it on the developer. I acknowledge that we should improve here. I'm merely pointing out that this is not always an issue when programming in Rust, just mostly for newcomers, which means that if you're willing to bear with it for a while whilst learning it won't be a problem later. This isn't an ideal situation and is one we should fix. But it's not as bad as a problem that plagues you whenever you are writing Rust code.
- braveo 10y ago
  It's not a problem in that you can make your code more awkward to work around it, but it's still a problem.
  - Manishearth 10y ago
    No, you misunderstand what I'm saying, I'm saying that a lot of these issues don't crop up in the first place -- because you've structured your code a different way -- not an awkward way, just different (more idiomatic) -- once you have some experience with Rust. Some of these problems persist as awkwardness in even idiomatic code. Most go away. I write Rust code every day, and I've seen or written borrowck-induced awkward Rust code maybe twice this month. All of this is not to say that it isn't a problem we should be fixing -- it is and we are. But it's less of an annoyance in everyday Rust programming than one initially gets the impression it will be.
    - braveo 10y ago
      > I write Rust code every day, and I've seen or written borrowck-induced awkward Rust code maybe twice this month. Which is exactly what I was describing, why are you continuing to argue against the point?
      - Manishearth 10y ago
        Twice amongst the thousands of lines of code I've read this month is nothing. There are many other sources of awkwardness that trump this, much like any any other code in any other language will have awkwardness in places when you scale up to that level.
        braveo 10y ago
        So just admit that it should be better and will be once the checker is improved, stop arguing about it. And please stop trying so hard to imply the problem is with the developer.
        Manishearth 10y ago
        Are you serious? I have said that it should be improved from the get-go. Every comment of mine above says that. I'm not implying that the problem is with the developer. I strongly feel that this is something we should fix. I strongly feel that programmers -- new or otherwise -- shouldn't have to deal with this. I've said all this multiple times, go back and read my comments.. You're the one arguing the same point over and over. I'm just pointing out that with some experience it ceases to be a problem. My point is simply this: This is not a problem that will plague you once you've been programming Rust for a while, so it's not one of those persistent annoyances that will stick with you no matter how much you program in a language. I'm only making that distinction. That it's not that bad. It's bad. We're fixing it. It's not the developer's fault. But neither is it a problem that will always plague you. It goes away as you start writing more idiomatic code. That should not be necessary, agreed, and we should fix that, but it is true. I said as much in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13415585 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13415585 I'm starting to feel you're not commenting in good faith here. I'm not going to repeat the same thing over and over.

by braveo 10y ago

Manishearth 10y ago

I'm not blaming it on the developer. I acknowledge that we should improve here. I'm merely pointing out that this is not always an issue when programming in Rust, just mostly for newcomers, which means that if you're willing to bear with it for a while whilst learning it won't be a problem later. This isn't an ideal situation and is one we should fix. But it's not as bad as a problem that plagues you whenever you are writing Rust code.

braveo 10y ago
It's not a problem in that you can make your code more awkward to work around it, but it's still a problem.
- Manishearth 10y ago
  No, you misunderstand what I'm saying, I'm saying that a lot of these issues don't crop up in the first place -- because you've structured your code a different way -- not an awkward way, just different (more idiomatic) -- once you have some experience with Rust. Some of these problems persist as awkwardness in even idiomatic code. Most go away. I write Rust code every day, and I've seen or written borrowck-induced awkward Rust code maybe twice this month. All of this is not to say that it isn't a problem we should be fixing -- it is and we are. But it's less of an annoyance in everyday Rust programming than one initially gets the impression it will be.
  - braveo 10y ago
    > I write Rust code every day, and I've seen or written borrowck-induced awkward Rust code maybe twice this month. Which is exactly what I was describing, why are you continuing to argue against the point?
    - Manishearth 10y ago
      Twice amongst the thousands of lines of code I've read this month is nothing. There are many other sources of awkwardness that trump this, much like any any other code in any other language will have awkwardness in places when you scale up to that level.
      - braveo 10y ago
        So just admit that it should be better and will be once the checker is improved, stop arguing about it. And please stop trying so hard to imply the problem is with the developer.
        Manishearth 10y ago
        Are you serious? I have said that it should be improved from the get-go. Every comment of mine above says that. I'm not implying that the problem is with the developer. I strongly feel that this is something we should fix. I strongly feel that programmers -- new or otherwise -- shouldn't have to deal with this. I've said all this multiple times, go back and read my comments.. You're the one arguing the same point over and over. I'm just pointing out that with some experience it ceases to be a problem. My point is simply this: This is not a problem that will plague you once you've been programming Rust for a while, so it's not one of those persistent annoyances that will stick with you no matter how much you program in a language. I'm only making that distinction. That it's not that bad. It's bad. We're fixing it. It's not the developer's fault. But neither is it a problem that will always plague you. It goes away as you start writing more idiomatic code. That should not be necessary, agreed, and we should fix that, but it is true. I said as much in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13415585 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13415585 I'm starting to feel you're not commenting in good faith here. I'm not going to repeat the same thing over and over.