4 ms·

People mention the lack of VC, infrastructure, tax or other issues, but to me the biggest problem is the lack of talent. I would say that in terms of business

by vmarsy 10y ago

People mention the lack of VC, infrastructure, tax or other issues, but to me the biggest problem is the lack of talent. I would say that in terms of business skills, there's a surplus of "salesmen" type of founders, but technical founders are missing. France engineers are very smart and engineering school are among the best, but unfortunately I find their curriculum still oriented towards hard engineering (civil, aerospace, nuclear, etc.). On the other hand you can go to a classic university instead of the engineering school and get a computer science degree, but then you don't get as much of the engineer mindset training. Instead you get something leaning towards the pure science training, and due to the lower prestige of the universities, the computer science teaching is lagging behind a US computer science school. Either the universities could invest more in a better computer science degree, but finding good fundings is probably difficult for public universities whose budget is decided by the government. Or the engineering schools could join the 21st century. French billionaire Xavier niel recognizes the problem and tries to address it with his "42" school[1], I wonder how much impactful this has been [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/42_(school) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/42_(school)

user5994461 10y ago
The French engineering talent is top notch... but you'll never see it. Go to a graduation ceremony at a top school (note: it's delayed 1-2 years after graduation) and you'll learn that the top 10% have ALL left the country, no exception. (I'm talking about the top in terms of technical abilities, entrepreneurship and/or skills that are valuable to execute , not necessarily school grades).
- cdavid 10y ago
  I will ask citation on that one, as that's not my experience at all.
  - di4na 10y ago
    I can not find a quote because the numbers are hidden. But i am in an engineering school, i am in the top 10%, and it is true. There was even a note from the ministry this year asking engineering school to stop the mandatory semester in a foreign university for all engineering student, to try to reduce the drain.
    - catwell 10y ago
      The truth is it is a lot more complicated than you make it sound. There are some schools which are relatively young and focus on coding. Historically they were expensive (for French schools), even though one of them is now free thanks to the generosity of a French billionaire. They recruit students with different profiles than the traditional "Grandes Écoles" and they get much less recognition from French employers, especially large companies. Because of that, their top students may indeed be inclined to move abroad, where degrees matter less. In the more generalist, traditional engineering Grandes Écoles, however, the phenomenon is a lot less prevalent. Some students do move abroad, but my experience is that it is not correlated to their competence. Those with propensity to found companies are more likely to go to the US, but that is mostly because the ecosystem there is like no other. On the other hand, you may have noticed that some large US companies (Google, Facebook...) have been opening research labs in Paris, while top French companies such as Criteo send their marketing department to the US but keep development in France. This is not only because talent is cheaper (others have already explained how low salaries for not mean low costs) but also because top technical talent doesn't necessarily want to emigrate. This is cliché, but Fabrice Bellard is still living in France, and Yann Le Cun moved back. :)
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - vmarsy 10y ago
      I can't find anything online about that note from a ministry, do you have access to any sources? (either French or English)
    - julio83 10y ago
      Well I am french, top 1 and it's false... Sorry guy just open your eyes and go to the dynamic part of the french society.
      - user5994461 10y ago
        Thank you for saying that. I am top 1 too, we're meant to work together =) How much does the dynamic part of the French society offered you for you work?
- hiq 10y ago
  Given the size of most engineering programs in France and the way students are admitted into these programs, talking about some 10% top doesn't make sense, especially with the criteria that you mention and that cannot be assessed just 2 years after graduation. Many of these students do start their careers elsewhere, partly due to the way the curriculum is planned (which leads many of them to finish their studies abroad). If you do look for them for your company/startup you'll be able to see them, although you could have to dig a bit deeper due to the small size of these programs (advertising in one specific French university does not have the same impact as in the UK/US and most other countries in the world).
- geodel 10y ago
  I find it believable and surprising at the same time. Believable because despite what everyone claim, lot of people put money on top of everything else and they will head to where they are welcome to make more money. Surprising because if a first world nation with high quality life in so many ways faces this problem what about the rest of the world.
  - user5994461 10y ago
    It's not about money. There are no jobs in the tech industry in France. Moved for the job. Stayed abroad for the job and the money. Then whenever you look at what the country has to offer if you ever go back, you're like: "Fuckkkkkkkk" (yeah, it's that much of a disaster).

by vmarsy 10y ago

user5994461 10y ago

The French engineering talent is top notch... but you'll never see it. Go to a graduation ceremony at a top school (note: it's delayed 1-2 years after graduation) and you'll learn that the top 10% have ALL left the country, no exception. (I'm talking about the top in terms of technical abilities, entrepreneurship and/or skills that are valuable to execute , not necessarily school grades).

cdavid 10y ago
I will ask citation on that one, as that's not my experience at all.
- di4na 10y ago
  I can not find a quote because the numbers are hidden. But i am in an engineering school, i am in the top 10%, and it is true. There was even a note from the ministry this year asking engineering school to stop the mandatory semester in a foreign university for all engineering student, to try to reduce the drain.
  - catwell 10y ago
    The truth is it is a lot more complicated than you make it sound. There are some schools which are relatively young and focus on coding. Historically they were expensive (for French schools), even though one of them is now free thanks to the generosity of a French billionaire. They recruit students with different profiles than the traditional "Grandes Écoles" and they get much less recognition from French employers, especially large companies. Because of that, their top students may indeed be inclined to move abroad, where degrees matter less. In the more generalist, traditional engineering Grandes Écoles, however, the phenomenon is a lot less prevalent. Some students do move abroad, but my experience is that it is not correlated to their competence. Those with propensity to found companies are more likely to go to the US, but that is mostly because the ecosystem there is like no other. On the other hand, you may have noticed that some large US companies (Google, Facebook...) have been opening research labs in Paris, while top French companies such as Criteo send their marketing department to the US but keep development in France. This is not only because talent is cheaper (others have already explained how low salaries for not mean low costs) but also because top technical talent doesn't necessarily want to emigrate. This is cliché, but Fabrice Bellard is still living in France, and Yann Le Cun moved back. :)
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - vmarsy 10y ago
    I can't find anything online about that note from a ministry, do you have access to any sources? (either French or English)
  - julio83 10y ago
    Well I am french, top 1 and it's false... Sorry guy just open your eyes and go to the dynamic part of the french society.
    - user5994461 10y ago
      Thank you for saying that. I am top 1 too, we're meant to work together =) How much does the dynamic part of the French society offered you for you work?
hiq 10y ago
Given the size of most engineering programs in France and the way students are admitted into these programs, talking about some 10% top doesn't make sense, especially with the criteria that you mention and that cannot be assessed just 2 years after graduation. Many of these students do start their careers elsewhere, partly due to the way the curriculum is planned (which leads many of them to finish their studies abroad). If you do look for them for your company/startup you'll be able to see them, although you could have to dig a bit deeper due to the small size of these programs (advertising in one specific French university does not have the same impact as in the UK/US and most other countries in the world).
geodel 10y ago
I find it believable and surprising at the same time. Believable because despite what everyone claim, lot of people put money on top of everything else and they will head to where they are welcome to make more money. Surprising because if a first world nation with high quality life in so many ways faces this problem what about the rest of the world.
- user5994461 10y ago
  It's not about money. There are no jobs in the tech industry in France. Moved for the job. Stayed abroad for the job and the money. Then whenever you look at what the country has to offer if you ever go back, you're like: "Fuckkkkkkkk" (yeah, it's that much of a disaster).