6 ms·

>but it comes with access to top-notch free healthcare Does it cover stuff like cosmetic dermatology, full dental plan (implants) ? I don't live in France, I l

>but it comes with access to top-notch free healthcare Does it cover stuff like cosmetic dermatology, full dental plan (implants) ? I don't live in France, I lived in different EU countries and every time I needed something the "free health care" meant I had to pay participation fee and wait 6 months walking around appointments and ended up going private clinic. I basically got 0 value out it, considering I'm young and healthy I would not have to pay much for insurance, you're mostly footing the bill for the pensioners. >free university Which again means nothing to anyone immigrating as a skilled worker >pension contributions, I sincerely doubt that by the time I hit retirement age the pension system will look anything like it does now because of multiple factors (current pension funds being structured around social transfers and constant employment growth, meanwhile automation replacing a large % of workforce permanently). Again just transfer payments to old people. >5-7 weeks paid leave and generous unemployment insurance amongst other things So you're going to emigrate as an expert in a sector earning top ~10-1% income for unemployment benefits ? If you're a young professional either none of the things you listed matter to you or there are better countries than in Europe by those criteria (Nordics/Switzerland).

noplay 10y ago
Free university is a big deal if you move your family.
- digikata 10y ago
  I keep joking with my kids that they need to prepare for university in Europe somewhere... I think I would have loved the experience of it in my past, but I hesitate to force that upon them now.
- guitarbill 10y ago
  There are some (significant?) drawbacks to this. Although English fees are outrageous now, 8 years ago here's the differences I observed between English and German university. Because it's free, the first year has to be brutal to weed out <x>% the huge number of applicants. Lecture halls are overcrowded, especially for popular courses. If you want a seat, you need to get there 10 minutes early. The amount of 1:1 with staff or lab time is often small or non-existent. And courses aren't necessarily set up so you can take them in the correct order. In England, 3 years for a bachelor is normal. In Germany, I have known many people to take 6 years or more. So just because it's free doesn't make it better. Having said that, if you know the flaws it's fine. Many people go to University to have a degree for a job later, for that not having crippling debt is much more important than the absolute quality of the academic education. And post-grad courses and research don't suffer from this AFAIK.
  - hayd 10y ago
    I thought German's also cram in 4 terms every year rather than 2 and a bit in the UK? It seem like Germans who were doing 4 years had covered more ground than a bachelors + 2 years of MSc in the UK. Perhaps that's not the case across all courses/universities, but seemed to be the case from my experience with Mathematics Erasmus students (in both directions) and German PhD students. Seems to me like the German system is very high quality, and that the UK let too many weak candidates in to University and so the first year (and every year) is getting easier to compensate... I remember that this was the case with Scottish students (as Advanced Highers did not cover as much as A-levels) so they had to work much harder in their first year. Scottish friends seemed to be under the impression that the first year in Scottish Universities was much easier than UK equivalents...
    - guitarbill 10y ago
      > Seems to me like the German system is very high quality, and that the UK let too many weak candidates in to University and so the first year (and every year) is getting easier to compensate... This kind of generalisation is obviously useless, think Cambridge. Not that I'm defending all English universities, most of them aren't great. But that's true everywhere. A big problem in Germany is that the transition to Bachelor/Master degrees has resulted in courses that are in need of refining. Badly in some cases. I'm mainly critical to the way German institutions handle undergrad degrees. Their research is top notch, and many of my friends from England went on to do research there. I think that's also an indication that English degrees are rigorous enough. UK admissions is in principle more rigorous, by far. It acknowledges that school marks aren't everything and consideration for individuals with unusual situations or evident passion outside of school is given. Since offers are extended on a case-by-case basis, it's more fine-grained and the overcrowding, Darwinian filtering doesn't happen. It's very easy to confuse working hard for working smart. Both will can get you to the same place, but in terms of personal development, one has to be nurtured and the other burns you out.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
biztos 10y ago
I don't live in France but I do feel qualified to comment on the general comparison, being a US software guy in Europe. First, things like health care and free university are a huge deal if you plan to stay past your 30's. Consider being able to take a couple years to try a business without freaking out about health insurance. Consider being able to go get a PhD in some interesting subject without having to get a full scholarship. Consider, obviously, having kids and sending them to world-class universities without incurring any debt. Then there's the job security aspect. It can be really nice to be employed in a country where people aren't just laid off whenever a company misses its quarterly numbers. And finally, if you really are an actual Expert in a field where that's worth a lot of money, it's probably worth about as much in France as it is elsewhere. Sure all the "senior" programmers with 3 years' experience get paid a lot less than in the US, but I don't think the VP level does badly at all. (Maybe I'm being naive here... my point of reference being Germany.) I hear it can be very hard to get a proper, "permanent" job in France, but I also hear the quality of life is pretty amazing if you do.
- rubber_duck 10y ago
  I'm not trying to compare US and EU because I haven't lived in US, I'm just talking about France in the context of EU (although after Brexit things are a bit different). And I'm mostly asking this stuff as a counter point - I'm not making a definitive statement - again I've only looked in to France superficially before when I was looking for a country to move to - maybe I was wrong - but the arguments he presented don't appeal to me at all. I feel like there are countries with better social security (and seemingly more politically stable than France, again this is just the stuff I pick up from the media) and better pay range (at least that was the case last time I was looking where to move ~2 years ago). And most importantly - the language barrier - programmers have to speak English so English speaking countries don't have this problem.
- vostok 10y ago
  > Sure all the "senior" programmers with 3 years' experience get paid a lot less than in the US, but I don't think the VP level does badly at all. I think this is true from looking at my family. That's exactly what I don't like about European culture: the really senior people still make a lot of money. Americans are just better at sharing down the food chain.
reacharavindh 10y ago
>Pension contributions and retirement benefits I live in the US with H1B. I still pay Social Security, and Medicare/aid every paycheck. Don't you? Isn't it the same as what you said? Paying into a social system that probably won't be in a shape to pay you later?
- rubber_duck 10y ago
  I don't know why people assume I live in the US :/ I have no idea how the US system works in practice, I'm just saying to the OP that as a person who did emigrate for work within EU the arguments he listed mean very little to me.
elithrar 10y ago
> I basically got 0 value out it, considering I'm young and healthy I would not have to pay much for insurance, you're mostly footing the bill for the pensioners. Wait, what? What if you are diagnosed with a major illness? Are in a major car accident? etc, etc. The problem in the US is that people who are otherwise comfortable and healthy have their entire fortunes turn around, for the rest of their lives, due to unforeseen illness/incidents.
- rubber_duck 10y ago
  >Wait, what? What if you are diagnosed with a major illness? Clean family history, healthy lifestyle (don't drink often, don't smoke, workout and watch my diet) >Are in a major car accident? etc, etc. Don't drive or do many high risk activities. I'm probably at the bottom end of health risks - in a fair system my insurance would be minimal. Besides all other EU countries cover stuff like that (life changing scenarios).
CydeWeys 10y ago
You don't measure insurance like that, just like you don't measure whether a wager is a good idea based on how well you happen to do in a single bet, but rather, on the expected value of the average of all possible outcomes weighted by their respective probabilities. I'm in my early 30s, and up until last year never needed any sort of real medical treatment my entire life. Then I got I to a bike accident, fractured my tibia, almost needed surgery, and was damn glad that I did have health insurance. I could've just as easily not broken my ankle, or it could've been way, way worse. But I don't judge the value of insurance based on whether I happened to need it any given year; that's just dominated by chance.
- ferongr 10y ago
  One should mention their country of residence. In my case (Greece, 2005, during the golden days), if I had no money saved, my only option would be amputation instead of a titanium rod implant where my femur used to be.
discardorama 10y ago
> I basically got 0 value out it, considering I'm young and healthy I would not have to pay much for insurance, you're mostly footing the bill for the pensioners. And when you are a pensioner, who will foot your bill?
- rubber_duck 10y ago
  Hard to say TBH. The least likely option is current income based transfers, much more likely some UBI scheme. Just going on the trend of increasing long term unemployment rates and automation. Honestly I have no idea what society is gonna look like in 40 years but I'm willing to bet your pension contributions will be irrelevant.
herbst 10y ago
> I had to pay participation fee and wait 6 months walking around appointments and ended up going private clinic. I lived in Austria and Switzerland. I never had to wait more than a few days and private clinics are usually allowed to go to without additional costs. Please dont project your experience to whole europe/eu

noplay 10y ago

Free university is a big deal if you move your family.

digikata 10y ago
I keep joking with my kids that they need to prepare for university in Europe somewhere... I think I would have loved the experience of it in my past, but I hesitate to force that upon them now.
guitarbill 10y ago
There are some (significant?) drawbacks to this. Although English fees are outrageous now, 8 years ago here's the differences I observed between English and German university. Because it's free, the first year has to be brutal to weed out <x>% the huge number of applicants. Lecture halls are overcrowded, especially for popular courses. If you want a seat, you need to get there 10 minutes early. The amount of 1:1 with staff or lab time is often small or non-existent. And courses aren't necessarily set up so you can take them in the correct order. In England, 3 years for a bachelor is normal. In Germany, I have known many people to take 6 years or more. So just because it's free doesn't make it better. Having said that, if you know the flaws it's fine. Many people go to University to have a degree for a job later, for that not having crippling debt is much more important than the absolute quality of the academic education. And post-grad courses and research don't suffer from this AFAIK.
- hayd 10y ago
  I thought German's also cram in 4 terms every year rather than 2 and a bit in the UK? It seem like Germans who were doing 4 years had covered more ground than a bachelors + 2 years of MSc in the UK. Perhaps that's not the case across all courses/universities, but seemed to be the case from my experience with Mathematics Erasmus students (in both directions) and German PhD students. Seems to me like the German system is very high quality, and that the UK let too many weak candidates in to University and so the first year (and every year) is getting easier to compensate... I remember that this was the case with Scottish students (as Advanced Highers did not cover as much as A-levels) so they had to work much harder in their first year. Scottish friends seemed to be under the impression that the first year in Scottish Universities was much easier than UK equivalents...
  - guitarbill 10y ago
    > Seems to me like the German system is very high quality, and that the UK let too many weak candidates in to University and so the first year (and every year) is getting easier to compensate... This kind of generalisation is obviously useless, think Cambridge. Not that I'm defending all English universities, most of them aren't great. But that's true everywhere. A big problem in Germany is that the transition to Bachelor/Master degrees has resulted in courses that are in need of refining. Badly in some cases. I'm mainly critical to the way German institutions handle undergrad degrees. Their research is top notch, and many of my friends from England went on to do research there. I think that's also an indication that English degrees are rigorous enough. UK admissions is in principle more rigorous, by far. It acknowledges that school marks aren't everything and consideration for individuals with unusual situations or evident passion outside of school is given. Since offers are extended on a case-by-case basis, it's more fine-grained and the overcrowding, Darwinian filtering doesn't happen. It's very easy to confuse working hard for working smart. Both will can get you to the same place, but in terms of personal development, one has to be nurtured and the other burns you out.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

biztos 10y ago

I don't live in France but I do feel qualified to comment on the general comparison, being a US software guy in Europe. First, things like health care and free university are a huge deal if you plan to stay past your 30's. Consider being able to take a couple years to try a business without freaking out about health insurance. Consider being able to go get a PhD in some interesting subject without having to get a full scholarship. Consider, obviously, having kids and sending them to world-class universities without incurring any debt. Then there's the job security aspect. It can be really nice to be employed in a country where people aren't just laid off whenever a company misses its quarterly numbers. And finally, if you really are an actual Expert in a field where that's worth a lot of money, it's probably worth about as much in France as it is elsewhere. Sure all the "senior" programmers with 3 years' experience get paid a lot less than in the US, but I don't think the VP level does badly at all. (Maybe I'm being naive here... my point of reference being Germany.) I hear it can be very hard to get a proper, "permanent" job in France, but I also hear the quality of life is pretty amazing if you do.

rubber_duck 10y ago
I'm not trying to compare US and EU because I haven't lived in US, I'm just talking about France in the context of EU (although after Brexit things are a bit different). And I'm mostly asking this stuff as a counter point - I'm not making a definitive statement - again I've only looked in to France superficially before when I was looking for a country to move to - maybe I was wrong - but the arguments he presented don't appeal to me at all. I feel like there are countries with better social security (and seemingly more politically stable than France, again this is just the stuff I pick up from the media) and better pay range (at least that was the case last time I was looking where to move ~2 years ago). And most importantly - the language barrier - programmers have to speak English so English speaking countries don't have this problem.
vostok 10y ago
> Sure all the "senior" programmers with 3 years' experience get paid a lot less than in the US, but I don't think the VP level does badly at all. I think this is true from looking at my family. That's exactly what I don't like about European culture: the really senior people still make a lot of money. Americans are just better at sharing down the food chain.

reacharavindh 10y ago

>Pension contributions and retirement benefits I live in the US with H1B. I still pay Social Security, and Medicare/aid every paycheck. Don't you? Isn't it the same as what you said? Paying into a social system that probably won't be in a shape to pay you later?

rubber_duck 10y ago
I don't know why people assume I live in the US :/ I have no idea how the US system works in practice, I'm just saying to the OP that as a person who did emigrate for work within EU the arguments he listed mean very little to me.

elithrar 10y ago

> I basically got 0 value out it, considering I'm young and healthy I would not have to pay much for insurance, you're mostly footing the bill for the pensioners. Wait, what? What if you are diagnosed with a major illness? Are in a major car accident? etc, etc. The problem in the US is that people who are otherwise comfortable and healthy have their entire fortunes turn around, for the rest of their lives, due to unforeseen illness/incidents.

rubber_duck 10y ago
>Wait, what? What if you are diagnosed with a major illness? Clean family history, healthy lifestyle (don't drink often, don't smoke, workout and watch my diet) >Are in a major car accident? etc, etc. Don't drive or do many high risk activities. I'm probably at the bottom end of health risks - in a fair system my insurance would be minimal. Besides all other EU countries cover stuff like that (life changing scenarios).

CydeWeys 10y ago

You don't measure insurance like that, just like you don't measure whether a wager is a good idea based on how well you happen to do in a single bet, but rather, on the expected value of the average of all possible outcomes weighted by their respective probabilities. I'm in my early 30s, and up until last year never needed any sort of real medical treatment my entire life. Then I got I to a bike accident, fractured my tibia, almost needed surgery, and was damn glad that I did have health insurance. I could've just as easily not broken my ankle, or it could've been way, way worse. But I don't judge the value of insurance based on whether I happened to need it any given year; that's just dominated by chance.

ferongr 10y ago
One should mention their country of residence. In my case (Greece, 2005, during the golden days), if I had no money saved, my only option would be amputation instead of a titanium rod implant where my femur used to be.

discardorama 10y ago

> I basically got 0 value out it, considering I'm young and healthy I would not have to pay much for insurance, you're mostly footing the bill for the pensioners. And when you are a pensioner, who will foot your bill?

rubber_duck 10y ago
Hard to say TBH. The least likely option is current income based transfers, much more likely some UBI scheme. Just going on the trend of increasing long term unemployment rates and automation. Honestly I have no idea what society is gonna look like in 40 years but I'm willing to bet your pension contributions will be irrelevant.

herbst 10y ago

> I had to pay participation fee and wait 6 months walking around appointments and ended up going private clinic. I lived in Austria and Switzerland. I never had to wait more than a few days and private clinics are usually allowed to go to without additional costs. Please dont project your experience to whole europe/eu