8 ms·

Raw salary comparisons miss the point : you can't really compare pre-tax salaries between countries with such a completely different taxation and benefits struc

by renaudg 10y ago

Raw salary comparisons miss the point : you can't really compare pre-tax salaries between countries with such a completely different taxation and benefits structure. The take home pay certainly is much, much lower in France than in the US, but it comes with access to top-notch free healthcare, free university, pension contributions, 5-7 weeks paid leave and generous unemployment insurance amongst other things. It all adds up. I'm French, working in London and I've been happy with the trade off of more pay for a thinner social safety net, but I know it would be foolish to compare wages directly. I suspect the difference is much less spectacular with everything taken into account.

umanwizard 10y ago
I have only three years of experience as a software engineer. I made over $200,000 in 2016. This is more than the Prime Minister and President make in France. I also have health insurance provided by my employer. Granted, I only get four weeks of paid leave, which is less than would be typical for a French person, but not by a dramatic amount. I would understand your point if the raw salaries were closer with France's only slightly lower. But the difference (for people working at top tech jobs) is so extreme that no amount of free university and pensions can make up for it. Even if I have to save for my retirement, save for my hypothetical children's future education, and so on, I'm still making a lot more in the US than I would in France.
- rublev 10y ago
  >I have only three years of experience as a software engineer. I made over $200,000 in 2016. What do you do?
  - umanwizard 10y ago
    I am a software engineer at a top tech company.
    - martin1975 10y ago
      Netflix in the Bay Area?
      - umanwizard 10y ago
        No, but my guess is that they pay similarly well.
        vostok 10y ago
        My guess is that they pay much more.
        umanwizard 10y ago
        Well, maybe. I really have no idea. But even if I could get a job there and make more money, I strongly prefer not to leave NYC for the Bay Area.
  - sulam 10y ago
    If s/he works for a public company, this is totally in line with total compensation at that experience level after you factor in stock. There are many places where you can get this level of comp. Of course, your stock package has to be worth something -- this person is almost certainly not getting over $200K in base salary alone, and if they are I would echo your question -- "what do you do?" -- and add another -- "who do you do it for?"
    - umanwizard 10y ago
      Yes, this includes stock, which is effectively the same as cash to me since I always sell it immediately when it vests. (Not because I don't believe in my company, but just because I don't want to put all my eggs in one basket)
    - xenadu02 10y ago
      Yes indeed; for senior engineers base salary approaches $200k, excluding bonuses and RSUs/options. RSUs are in the $50-$200k/year range depending on many factors. The general expectation is a top-up at least 50% of signing RSUs per year each year, so as the vesting periods stack up you can end up earning more in stock in years 4+ than in salary. YMMV on all this. A new college grad isn't going to get that kind of deal in most cases. It also helps to interview and get multiple offers. Once hired you're typically expected to work hard and demonstrate the value you add to the business.
  - chrisper 10y ago
    He probably included the extra stuff, like equity, bonuses etc. and not just the salary.
    - umanwizard 10y ago
      Of course, why wouldn't I? I immediately sell all the equity I get, so it's effectively the same as cash.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- hoorayimhelping 10y ago
  >I made over $200,000 in 2016. This is more than the Prime Minister and President make in France. This kind of braggadocio statement is why the hate for tech workers is growing. It shows a serious lack of perspective and an incredible amount of arrogance and condescension. It's also very untypical, even for a skilled tech worker in America.
  - umanwizard 10y ago
    We are literally in a forum discussing tech worker salaries. Yes, I make an amount of money that puts me in an extremely high percentile relative to the world population. But pointing that out in a context where it's completely relevant is just conversation, not bragging. Do you think I go around showing my W2 to random financially struggling strangers, or something? I don't. By the way it's not as atypical as you might think, for top tech/finance jobs in the Bay Area or NYC. I know lots of people making these salaries, at companies other than mine. As an aside: I didn't make any claims at all about whether I thought my pay was high or low, fair or unfair, whether I deserved more, how it compared to anyone else's in any other industry, etc. etc., so why exactly are you claiming I "lack perspective"? I don't think I displayed either perspective or lack thereof with my totally neutral statements.
    - geodel 10y ago
      This is great. Though I must say that more than few people here believe they deserve $200K+ pay for next generation CRUD app.
      - hueving 10y ago
        There are more than a few people that believe they deserve $1m+ for throwing or kicking a ball. I hope you look down on them as well.
  - whack 10y ago
    This kind of statement helps people understand the challenges France is going to have in luring the top software-engineers away from America. I know it hurts people's ego when they hear someone with less experience making more than them, but put that aside and recognize that it adds to the discussion.
- tornadoboy55 10y ago
  > get cancer, or accident, or kids > financial life ruined in the EU, not so much.
  - ensignavenger 10y ago
    Did you miss the part where he said he had health insurance paid for by his employer?
    - tornadoboy55 10y ago
      .. which is usually capped. So you are covered for minor incidents, but anything above 200k (or whatever the cap is) will completely fuck you up. Because anything that will have that much cost will also be something serious enough to incapacitate you for a long time and leave you without income. EU healthcare usually doesn't have cap, nor a deductible of thousands of dollars.
      - renaudg 10y ago
        ...and has "preexisting conditions" clauses, right ? This doesn't exist in France.
        ensignavenger 10y ago
        No, there are no per-exisitng conditions clauses anymore.
      - wooter 10y ago
        This is not even remotely true at all. Have you ever looked at a health insurance plan in the US?
      - xenadu02 10y ago
        That's not true. Obamacare eliminated lifetime caps. Small and medium size companies often had $1 million lifetime caps but large companies have negotiating power and typically had no pre-existing condition exclusion periods and no lifetime caps (or something insane like $10 million). Under Obamacare all US health insurance plans have no lifetime caps and no pre-existing condition exclusions.
- seszett 10y ago
  > This is more than the Prime Minister and President make in France. Plenty of people make more than they do though. These are not especially high-paying positions, they're not even the highest paying government positions.
EduardoBautista 10y ago
I've never found the healthcare argument to be relevant. Software Engineers in the USA usually have generous health care plans provided by their employers. Same with vacation time.
- jasonlotito 10y ago
  To continue with the healthcare argument, "top-notch healthcare" is debatable. Autism support in France is not good at all. People always like to think of healthcare as a single entity, a single package. Either it's good or it's bad as a whole. The truth is, it's not.
  - mfo 10y ago
    Autism in France is addressed ; autists kids have special classes in public schools (with non autist kids, so they share free time, lunch etc...., this kinds of system is aka as IME). Also those kids are mixed with non-autist kids during classes (a few hours a week). All in all, the system try it's hardest to make them feel normal (IMO). What would you expect from a society dealings with disabled (nothing bad) ?
    - jasonlotito 10y ago
      Some kids. I believe the number is something like 1/5th the kids get the support they need. Yep, did a bit of searching. http://www.euronews.com/2016/03/30/children-losing-out-as-france-lags-rest-of-europe-on-autism-vision http://www.euronews.com/2016/03/30/children-losing-out-as-fr... Nothing has changed since I last looked when I was living in Quebec. > What would you expect from a society dealings with disabled (nothing bad) ? What do I expect, or what do I hope? I expect that people assume that because they hospital visit for a broken leg is "free" and "good", that it carries over to autistic support, and that any suggestion otherwise is absurd and alarmist. This is usually the case. I'd hope that they take the concerns from parents seriously and not be dismissive, even if it means they have to admit there are flaws in the system.
- ergothus 10y ago
tomp 10y ago
Is "paid leave" really the best characterisation? Unless French system is radically different from e.g. UK and Slovenian (which I have experience with), that would be "paid vacation" - "leave", e.g. sick days, aren't counted as part of the vacation, and are also paid. It's my undertanding that "paid leave/time off" in the US means sick days + vacation.
- biztos 10y ago
  At least in my experience, there was a shift around the late 90's at US corporations away from having a set number of no-questions-asked paid sick days (which often went unused) plus a fixed amount of vacation (which you were strongly encouraged to use); to having a fixed number of "Personal Time Off" days (PTO) accruing every month, and anything you did other than work used them up. This, predictably enough, had the effect of people coming to work sick, because if you took the day off you'd lose a vacation day. Now it seems the new trend is to have no specific number of free days, but leave it up to the employee to take however many days off he/she feels are necessary. Then it's up to their manager to deal with it if they take "too many." This lets you tell people they can take vacations, while not carrying any liability to pay them for the unused vacation if they quit or are laid off / fired. The downside is that there is no longer any incentive to take any specific amount of vacation (after all, it's not accrued and can't expire). So if you're really busy, maybe you'll never take more than a couple days at a time. The upside would seem to be that if you're a top performer and manage your time very well and have a cool manager, you can potentially take a LOT of time off without violating any company policy. I have however not heard any stories of this being done.
rubber_duck 10y ago
>but it comes with access to top-notch free healthcare Does it cover stuff like cosmetic dermatology, full dental plan (implants) ? I don't live in France, I lived in different EU countries and every time I needed something the "free health care" meant I had to pay participation fee and wait 6 months walking around appointments and ended up going private clinic. I basically got 0 value out it, considering I'm young and healthy I would not have to pay much for insurance, you're mostly footing the bill for the pensioners. >free university Which again means nothing to anyone immigrating as a skilled worker >pension contributions, I sincerely doubt that by the time I hit retirement age the pension system will look anything like it does now because of multiple factors (current pension funds being structured around social transfers and constant employment growth, meanwhile automation replacing a large % of workforce permanently). Again just transfer payments to old people. >5-7 weeks paid leave and generous unemployment insurance amongst other things So you're going to emigrate as an expert in a sector earning top ~10-1% income for unemployment benefits ? If you're a young professional either none of the things you listed matter to you or there are better countries than in Europe by those criteria (Nordics/Switzerland).
- noplay 10y ago
  Free university is a big deal if you move your family.
  - digikata 10y ago
    I keep joking with my kids that they need to prepare for university in Europe somewhere... I think I would have loved the experience of it in my past, but I hesitate to force that upon them now.
  - guitarbill 10y ago
    There are some (significant?) drawbacks to this. Although English fees are outrageous now, 8 years ago here's the differences I observed between English and German university. Because it's free, the first year has to be brutal to weed out <x>% the huge number of applicants. Lecture halls are overcrowded, especially for popular courses. If you want a seat, you need to get there 10 minutes early. The amount of 1:1 with staff or lab time is often small or non-existent. And courses aren't necessarily set up so you can take them in the correct order. In England, 3 years for a bachelor is normal. In Germany, I have known many people to take 6 years or more. So just because it's free doesn't make it better. Having said that, if you know the flaws it's fine. Many people go to University to have a degree for a job later, for that not having crippling debt is much more important than the absolute quality of the academic education. And post-grad courses and research don't suffer from this AFAIK.
lend000 10y ago
France's pension system (for public employees in particular) is in deep trouble, as our many of its other 'free lunch' policies. Its debt is looking similar to Greece shortly before '09. http://www.tradingeconomics.com/france/government-debt-to-gdp http://www.tradingeconomics.com/france/government-debt-to-gd...
- cdavid 10y ago
  FWIW, that's lower than the US, and not that much higher than the UK (and we don't really know what is a good debt/gdp ratio). Also, those numbers are not directly comparable (e.g. in Germany a lot of what used to be counted as gvt is now private: the work done is the same, as are the obligations, but it appears in a different "bucket").
  - lend000 10y ago
    It is indeed worth something -- most western countries are in deep trouble. And yet many pundits predict a strong dollar under Trump... For the vast majority of these countries, virtually the only way to meet debt obligations over the next decade will require rapid debasement of the indebted currency. Get your gold mining stocks/Bitcoin while you can. Bad things will happen when the average person realizes what this means: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/WALCL https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/WALCL
dv_dt 10y ago
TBH, I don't really consider money I allocate for health insurance in the US as "take home". I wonder how the pension contributions work for expats?
herbst 10y ago
IMO its hard for people coming from a country without proper social security standards to understand why we are happy to pay for those. Personally i dont mind earning less, i am close to 30 and have no financial pillow or anything. So far i just enjoyed life and spent money as i wanted to. If i get unemployed or sick i have nothing to worry, which is something i happily pay for. I also enjoy the fact that i know people who live in my country have mostly a good life. Have enough to eat & get taken care of. I see how a different world view makes this irrelevant, but personally i feel this is worth a lot. Makes the environment generally more nice.

by renaudg 10y ago

umanwizard 10y ago

I have only three years of experience as a software engineer. I made over $200,000 in 2016. This is more than the Prime Minister and President make in France. I also have health insurance provided by my employer. Granted, I only get four weeks of paid leave, which is less than would be typical for a French person, but not by a dramatic amount. I would understand your point if the raw salaries were closer with France's only slightly lower. But the difference (for people working at top tech jobs) is so extreme that no amount of free university and pensions can make up for it. Even if I have to save for my retirement, save for my hypothetical children's future education, and so on, I'm still making a lot more in the US than I would in France.

rublev 10y ago
>I have only three years of experience as a software engineer. I made over $200,000 in 2016. What do you do?
- umanwizard 10y ago
  I am a software engineer at a top tech company.
  - martin1975 10y ago
    Netflix in the Bay Area?
    - umanwizard 10y ago
      No, but my guess is that they pay similarly well.
      - vostok 10y ago
        My guess is that they pay much more.
        umanwizard 10y ago
        Well, maybe. I really have no idea. But even if I could get a job there and make more money, I strongly prefer not to leave NYC for the Bay Area.
- sulam 10y ago
  If s/he works for a public company, this is totally in line with total compensation at that experience level after you factor in stock. There are many places where you can get this level of comp. Of course, your stock package has to be worth something -- this person is almost certainly not getting over $200K in base salary alone, and if they are I would echo your question -- "what do you do?" -- and add another -- "who do you do it for?"
  - umanwizard 10y ago
    Yes, this includes stock, which is effectively the same as cash to me since I always sell it immediately when it vests. (Not because I don't believe in my company, but just because I don't want to put all my eggs in one basket)
  - xenadu02 10y ago
    Yes indeed; for senior engineers base salary approaches $200k, excluding bonuses and RSUs/options. RSUs are in the $50-$200k/year range depending on many factors. The general expectation is a top-up at least 50% of signing RSUs per year each year, so as the vesting periods stack up you can end up earning more in stock in years 4+ than in salary. YMMV on all this. A new college grad isn't going to get that kind of deal in most cases. It also helps to interview and get multiple offers. Once hired you're typically expected to work hard and demonstrate the value you add to the business.
- chrisper 10y ago
  He probably included the extra stuff, like equity, bonuses etc. and not just the salary.
  - umanwizard 10y ago
    Of course, why wouldn't I? I immediately sell all the equity I get, so it's effectively the same as cash.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
hoorayimhelping 10y ago
>I made over $200,000 in 2016. This is more than the Prime Minister and President make in France. This kind of braggadocio statement is why the hate for tech workers is growing. It shows a serious lack of perspective and an incredible amount of arrogance and condescension. It's also very untypical, even for a skilled tech worker in America.
- umanwizard 10y ago
  We are literally in a forum discussing tech worker salaries. Yes, I make an amount of money that puts me in an extremely high percentile relative to the world population. But pointing that out in a context where it's completely relevant is just conversation, not bragging. Do you think I go around showing my W2 to random financially struggling strangers, or something? I don't. By the way it's not as atypical as you might think, for top tech/finance jobs in the Bay Area or NYC. I know lots of people making these salaries, at companies other than mine. As an aside: I didn't make any claims at all about whether I thought my pay was high or low, fair or unfair, whether I deserved more, how it compared to anyone else's in any other industry, etc. etc., so why exactly are you claiming I "lack perspective"? I don't think I displayed either perspective or lack thereof with my totally neutral statements.
  - geodel 10y ago
    This is great. Though I must say that more than few people here believe they deserve $200K+ pay for next generation CRUD app.
    - hueving 10y ago
      There are more than a few people that believe they deserve $1m+ for throwing or kicking a ball. I hope you look down on them as well.
- whack 10y ago
  This kind of statement helps people understand the challenges France is going to have in luring the top software-engineers away from America. I know it hurts people's ego when they hear someone with less experience making more than them, but put that aside and recognize that it adds to the discussion.
tornadoboy55 10y ago
> get cancer, or accident, or kids > financial life ruined in the EU, not so much.
- ensignavenger 10y ago
  Did you miss the part where he said he had health insurance paid for by his employer?
  - tornadoboy55 10y ago
    .. which is usually capped. So you are covered for minor incidents, but anything above 200k (or whatever the cap is) will completely fuck you up. Because anything that will have that much cost will also be something serious enough to incapacitate you for a long time and leave you without income. EU healthcare usually doesn't have cap, nor a deductible of thousands of dollars.
    - renaudg 10y ago
      ...and has "preexisting conditions" clauses, right ? This doesn't exist in France.
      - ensignavenger 10y ago
        No, there are no per-exisitng conditions clauses anymore.
    - wooter 10y ago
      This is not even remotely true at all. Have you ever looked at a health insurance plan in the US?
    - xenadu02 10y ago
      That's not true. Obamacare eliminated lifetime caps. Small and medium size companies often had $1 million lifetime caps but large companies have negotiating power and typically had no pre-existing condition exclusion periods and no lifetime caps (or something insane like $10 million). Under Obamacare all US health insurance plans have no lifetime caps and no pre-existing condition exclusions.
seszett 10y ago
> This is more than the Prime Minister and President make in France. Plenty of people make more than they do though. These are not especially high-paying positions, they're not even the highest paying government positions.

EduardoBautista 10y ago

I've never found the healthcare argument to be relevant. Software Engineers in the USA usually have generous health care plans provided by their employers. Same with vacation time.

jasonlotito 10y ago
To continue with the healthcare argument, "top-notch healthcare" is debatable. Autism support in France is not good at all. People always like to think of healthcare as a single entity, a single package. Either it's good or it's bad as a whole. The truth is, it's not.
- mfo 10y ago
  Autism in France is addressed ; autists kids have special classes in public schools (with non autist kids, so they share free time, lunch etc...., this kinds of system is aka as IME). Also those kids are mixed with non-autist kids during classes (a few hours a week). All in all, the system try it's hardest to make them feel normal (IMO). What would you expect from a society dealings with disabled (nothing bad) ?
  - jasonlotito 10y ago
    Some kids. I believe the number is something like 1/5th the kids get the support they need. Yep, did a bit of searching. http://www.euronews.com/2016/03/30/children-losing-out-as-france-lags-rest-of-europe-on-autism-vision http://www.euronews.com/2016/03/30/children-losing-out-as-fr... Nothing has changed since I last looked when I was living in Quebec. > What would you expect from a society dealings with disabled (nothing bad) ? What do I expect, or what do I hope? I expect that people assume that because they hospital visit for a broken leg is "free" and "good", that it carries over to autistic support, and that any suggestion otherwise is absurd and alarmist. This is usually the case. I'd hope that they take the concerns from parents seriously and not be dismissive, even if it means they have to admit there are flaws in the system.
ergothus 10y ago

tomp 10y ago

Is "paid leave" really the best characterisation? Unless French system is radically different from e.g. UK and Slovenian (which I have experience with), that would be "paid vacation" - "leave", e.g. sick days, aren't counted as part of the vacation, and are also paid. It's my undertanding that "paid leave/time off" in the US means sick days + vacation.

biztos 10y ago
At least in my experience, there was a shift around the late 90's at US corporations away from having a set number of no-questions-asked paid sick days (which often went unused) plus a fixed amount of vacation (which you were strongly encouraged to use); to having a fixed number of "Personal Time Off" days (PTO) accruing every month, and anything you did other than work used them up. This, predictably enough, had the effect of people coming to work sick, because if you took the day off you'd lose a vacation day. Now it seems the new trend is to have no specific number of free days, but leave it up to the employee to take however many days off he/she feels are necessary. Then it's up to their manager to deal with it if they take "too many." This lets you tell people they can take vacations, while not carrying any liability to pay them for the unused vacation if they quit or are laid off / fired. The downside is that there is no longer any incentive to take any specific amount of vacation (after all, it's not accrued and can't expire). So if you're really busy, maybe you'll never take more than a couple days at a time. The upside would seem to be that if you're a top performer and manage your time very well and have a cool manager, you can potentially take a LOT of time off without violating any company policy. I have however not heard any stories of this being done.

rubber_duck 10y ago

>but it comes with access to top-notch free healthcare Does it cover stuff like cosmetic dermatology, full dental plan (implants) ? I don't live in France, I lived in different EU countries and every time I needed something the "free health care" meant I had to pay participation fee and wait 6 months walking around appointments and ended up going private clinic. I basically got 0 value out it, considering I'm young and healthy I would not have to pay much for insurance, you're mostly footing the bill for the pensioners. >free university Which again means nothing to anyone immigrating as a skilled worker >pension contributions, I sincerely doubt that by the time I hit retirement age the pension system will look anything like it does now because of multiple factors (current pension funds being structured around social transfers and constant employment growth, meanwhile automation replacing a large % of workforce permanently). Again just transfer payments to old people. >5-7 weeks paid leave and generous unemployment insurance amongst other things So you're going to emigrate as an expert in a sector earning top ~10-1% income for unemployment benefits ? If you're a young professional either none of the things you listed matter to you or there are better countries than in Europe by those criteria (Nordics/Switzerland).

noplay 10y ago
Free university is a big deal if you move your family.
- digikata 10y ago
  I keep joking with my kids that they need to prepare for university in Europe somewhere... I think I would have loved the experience of it in my past, but I hesitate to force that upon them now.
- guitarbill 10y ago
  There are some (significant?) drawbacks to this. Although English fees are outrageous now, 8 years ago here's the differences I observed between English and German university. Because it's free, the first year has to be brutal to weed out <x>% the huge number of applicants. Lecture halls are overcrowded, especially for popular courses. If you want a seat, you need to get there 10 minutes early. The amount of 1:1 with staff or lab time is often small or non-existent. And courses aren't necessarily set up so you can take them in the correct order. In England, 3 years for a bachelor is normal. In Germany, I have known many people to take 6 years or more. So just because it's free doesn't make it better. Having said that, if you know the flaws it's fine. Many people go to University to have a degree for a job later, for that not having crippling debt is much more important than the absolute quality of the academic education. And post-grad courses and research don't suffer from this AFAIK.

lend000 10y ago

France's pension system (for public employees in particular) is in deep trouble, as our many of its other 'free lunch' policies. Its debt is looking similar to Greece shortly before '09. http://www.tradingeconomics.com/france/government-debt-to-gdp http://www.tradingeconomics.com/france/government-debt-to-gd...

cdavid 10y ago
FWIW, that's lower than the US, and not that much higher than the UK (and we don't really know what is a good debt/gdp ratio). Also, those numbers are not directly comparable (e.g. in Germany a lot of what used to be counted as gvt is now private: the work done is the same, as are the obligations, but it appears in a different "bucket").
- lend000 10y ago
  It is indeed worth something -- most western countries are in deep trouble. And yet many pundits predict a strong dollar under Trump... For the vast majority of these countries, virtually the only way to meet debt obligations over the next decade will require rapid debasement of the indebted currency. Get your gold mining stocks/Bitcoin while you can. Bad things will happen when the average person realizes what this means: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/WALCL https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/WALCL

dv_dt 10y ago

TBH, I don't really consider money I allocate for health insurance in the US as "take home". I wonder how the pension contributions work for expats?

herbst 10y ago

IMO its hard for people coming from a country without proper social security standards to understand why we are happy to pay for those. Personally i dont mind earning less, i am close to 30 and have no financial pillow or anything. So far i just enjoyed life and spent money as i wanted to. If i get unemployed or sick i have nothing to worry, which is something i happily pay for. I also enjoy the fact that i know people who live in my country have mostly a good life. Have enough to eat & get taken care of. I see how a different world view makes this irrelevant, but personally i feel this is worth a lot. Makes the environment generally more nice.